OO Nation: All discussion pertaining to RAW (airing February 1, 2010) should be done in this thread. It will remain pinned at the top of the
Current Events section for the remainder of the week. In discussing the program, we'd love it if you shared your numerical rating for the
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Guidelines for TV Ratings/Discussion Threads.
Tonight on RAW: Triple H and Shawn Michaels will finally defend those pesky Unified Tag Titles; they've had -- what? -- that one match
against the Harts over on SD since winning them, I think; then they weaseled out of another defense two weeks ago on SD... but tonight, DX *must*
defend the straps in a triple threat match against the deserving #1 contenders, CM Punk/Luke Gallows, and the very persuasive, Shatner-convincing duo
of Big Show/Miz... a title change is all-but-certain, as it would allow DX to split and pursue their singles agendas; HBK's preferred schedule
(no working Tuesday night tapings, except for special occassions) means DX was never gonna make the most of the "brand-hopping" aspect of the unified
titles, anyway, so they belong on somebody who will... on one hand, Punk and his Straight Edge Society are red hot right now, and would play as well
on Mondays as they do on Fridays... on the other, Punk's qualified for the Elimination Chamber, while neither Show nor Miz has anything better to
do at the PPV than defend the tag titles (and would make for some fun interactions on their visits to SD, as Show and Jericho would be gold, and Miz
always seems to get the best out of Johnny Morrison), so if Show is healthy enough to hold up his end of tag matches, they're a viable option,
too...
Also tonight: various hostilities among the entrants to RAW's Chamber match (Sheamus, Cena, Orton, DiBiase, Kofi, and the otherwise-occupied HHH)
should keep the title picture spicy; DX splitting has already been discussed, but you also have the matter of Legacy's looming break-up to deal
with; and who knows? Maybe Big Show even tries to get back into the Chamber after the cheap/flukey way he lost to Kofi last week... Vince McMahon will
no doubt have a lot to say about Bret Hart; the only questions are whether Batista will visit from SD to address his motivations (and further his
now-certain WM26 feud with Cena), and whether Bret Hart will show up to begin his run as a weekly fixture on RAW (and his likely
partnership/mentorship with Cena)... one of these weeks, they will hold the long-established tourney finals for the Diva Title, Gail Kim vs. Maryse;
or maybe they'll just keep milking this with pointless backstage skits where Maryse pretends to be nice, but then says (presumably) bitchy things
in French that obviously NOBODY will ever be able to understand... and our Guest Host will be some diptard NASCAR nonlebrity; if he talked to his
fellow redneck buddies who hosted last year, I'm wagering he really has it in for some guy named "Kofi Johnston"; I'm also wagering that
even if he avoids mind-numbing, Orton-caliber flubbed lines, I -- along with the vast majority of the viewing audience -- will have a really tough
time giving a shit about anything the dude attempts to do, so let's hope WWE keeps that in mind when formatting tonight's show...
The flOOr is yours, OO Nation. Let your voice be heard and your thoughts on Brand Supremacy be known. Don't wait till after 11pm to post,
either. Pre-show previewing and prognosticating is certainly welcome. So discuss, debate, and rate!
Tag title match will be elimination style.
Which team goes out first? DX might make the most sense if the plan was to set-up a StraightEdge Society vs Miz/Big Show feud. With Elimination Rules
it sets up the possibility DX gets DQ'd/Counted Out without ending the match - so they'd be eliminated from the match and lose the titles
with the added protection that titles usually can't change hands on a DQ.
Punk/Gallows would make the most sense in that having the titles would allow Punk to move around on all shows. He could make the titles have certain
importance in that he could explain that by having the titles and the ability to jump brands it allows him to expand his audience and save more souls.
However Punk is above the tag titles, could Joey Mercury debut tonight, or wait until after Mania? Could the SES win the titles, but then Punk moves
on to Mysterio and have a mystery replacement at WM fatal fourway with BigShow/Miz, Hart Dynasty, Cryme Tyme?
Punk is working with Mysterio at recent house shows so that still seems to be the plan.
Watching my first RAW in two years tonight.
Apparently it's gotten worse than it was when Hornswoggle was the McMahon child, Punk was languishing in ECW, Morrison had just turned from
Nitro, and DeGeriatric X were the most entertaining part of the program.
Looking forward to it. Do you guys still do live chat during RAW?
I had no idea the match was elimination-style...
Back in the day, I had a strong preference for the ECW/three-way-dance elimination rules as the less cheap/flukey way of doing things, but I gotta
admit: after 15 years, WWE's pretty much beaten me into submission and gotten me acclimated to the
sudden-death/single-fall/champion-doesn't-have-to-be-pinned-to-lose rules.
Could be doing it the "old" way tonight to faciliate some sort of cheap DX exit or storyline element related to their split... could also just be a
way of previewing the Chamber PPV, since I believe that's really the only gimmick match in WWE's aresenal that IS traditionally held under
elimination-style rules. We'll see.
And it also occurs to me that I said "Show and Miz have nothing better to do at the PPV than defend that tag titles," but that's not the entire
story. Miz is still, technically, the US Champ (even if nobody but him seems to care about it, and his only matches are unannounced impromptu affairs
on PPV), so he SHOULD have something better to do. He just doesn't. Yet.
But I figure if we're labeling Punk as "above the tag titles," we oughta at least recognize that there's a similar stumbling block regarding
Miz. I don't know if I agree with anyone being "above" the tag belts; sure DX has punted their reign, but Show and Jericho were both huge singles
stars who made THEIR reign work really well, hopping brands and being active without totally eschewing singles agendas. It could happen that way again
with either Punk or Miz.
I think I'd still prefer to give the nod to Punk just now. Not just because his act is red hot, but because with the Society, the alternative
will be there before too long to expand his flock and start defending the tag titles "Freebird Rules" style. Which frees him up to do whatever's
required of him, singles-wise, while still being the primary brand-hopping heat magnet behind Luke/NextRandomBaldie.
Rick
Carl Edwards is the NASCAR guy who does the back flips of the car when he wins, so expect something zany along those lines tonight.
On that note, I'll be watching House. And Pawn Stars.
Does Lucky want to watch RAW tonight?
Pros:
- Tag Title Match I want to see with arguably the best act in wrestling in it.
- The possibility of Edge before his face turn makes him completely unenjoyable.
- The slight possibility that someone will jump over from ECW before they get kicked out for NXT.
Cons:
- Nascar host I couldn't care less about.
- Most likely no Bret but Cena serving as his stand in to advance a match I don't want to see at all.
- Divas action.
- The weakest championship run I can think of.
Neutral:
- Legacy breaking up with could be interesting or could be generic and boring like Legacy.
I miss anything?
quote:*drooooool
Originally posted by TexShark300
Carl Edwards is the NASCAR guy who does the back flips of the car when he wins
I still can't believe HBK didn't try to use his brandhopping abilities to show up on SD and get in the chamber. At the very least,
acknowledging that benefit of the tag titles would have made this match important and give DX a reason to care about losing. Otherwise, it's been
made pretty clear that they've got other priorities and could give a shit about the titles, which they really only won to piss off Jericho
anyway.
I think doing that would have added a little oomph to what will hopefully still be a good match between talented performers.
EDIT:
Rabbxt, does your avatar represent what you want to see out of Carl Edwards tonight?
[Edited on 2-8-2010 by theflammablemanimal]
Working tonight, thankfully. I won't be home to force myself to watch RAW.
What are the "logic" rules that signify whether Matte vs. Rabbxt will post?
Originally posted by rabbxt
quote:
*drooooool
Looks like he was separated from Gen Douche at birth. This is the future face of Nascar?
If he comes out like that, RAW gets at least a 3.0 from me.
It's not enough to make me ever...EVER...watch NASCAR though.
You know, after watching opening promo (I record it on Tivo to FF the ads/suck), there is no possible way that anybody in the whole wide world could
fuck up the Bret/Vince angle.
Seriously, my 8 year old could write this and it would be good. All the writers have to do, is get out of the way, the fans and Vince/Hart can do
this one their own.
It's the ultimate of all grudge matches, and they could go anywhere with it. Not just the 'you screwed me.you screwed you' type stuff,
but even the 'you destroyed my family' stuff or as Cena mentioned 'you are a bad man' stuff.
There's so many facets to this, that as soon as they overthink it, they'll blow it. I understand the need to heavily script the performers
on WWE, but sometimes when you have promo guys like Bret and Vince in there, you really do just need to let them get on with it and give, at the most,
bulletpoints.
Still, the opening promo sucked me in and I actually want to watch the show for the first time in a couple of years. Shame they brought on DX
Hornswoggle next.
EDIT : Nobody bother with the Live Chat thing any more?
DOUBLE EDIT : Guess not, I may as well carry on in this post then.
The Shaemus/Christian match was a little squashy at the end. Nothing says �legitimate Champion" like getting your ass handed to you by someone who
has being around for 10 years less than you. It seems that they['ve just given up on an angle for the ECW exit.
Hunter has aged terribly, Orton has doubled his body mass since last viewing. Still, Hunter can still actually wrestle though which is nice to see.
DX hasn't evolved in any way, shape or form, but when you sell as much merchandise and tickets as they do, do you really have to evolve? I
don't know.
Punk's new angle is awesome, and he's even going with the tried and true "crazy cult guy" beard. Someone on here posted about Mercury
coming in anddoing a "We're killing you because we love you" kind of like old Raven, and it fits really well.
I don't understand why Big Show is still employed. Apart from being a really big guy, I'm having trouble caring about him.
HBK just fell of the top rope, and Punk sold the elbow like he'd killed him, good job.
Maybe a little controversial, but I just hate the 'face in peril' tag team psychology now. The whole idea is surely to beat the face that
badly that the crowd don't expect to see the hot tag, which gives heat to the new guy coming in. Unfortunately, if 100% of the crowd know the
guys coming in eventually, all you are doing is slowing down the match and making it boring, there isn't any build up. Money Inc used to do it
well with the whole "cut off the corner" that Monsoon used to talk about and that made sense, but the commentators barely acknowledge it now. I
don't really know what I expected, but some freshness would have being nice.
Have the Big Show and Miz got any prior history as a team? They look a bit.....unsuited. That felt more like they were the least important people,
hence won the belts because everybody else was busy.
Wow, Ted Dibiase must have a shit hot plastic surgeon, he looks 40 years younger.
HoF inductee is...Ted Dibiase. Well, that's just killed my joke. On the plus side, it gives them an excuse to show his skits, which were
brilliant.
Who is Jared and why is he pimping Subway? Is he some sort of celebrity or something?
Jerry Springer and RAW, a match made in trash TV heaven. Somebody should have thought of this sooner, as WWE is now just basically a Springer show
with more athleticism.
A heel vs heel match is tough, and Orton/Runnells did pretty well considering the run in was a heel aswell. Not particularly sure who is meant to be
getting cheered in a Sheamus/Orton fight, but whatever, it went on for the right amount of time.
Vince is still awesomely douchy, put a bit of weight on though. Cena's tank comment was fun, though he does this stupid screwed up face. Angry
Cena is pathetic, fake and annoying.
I don't really understand why Cena is the Bret stand in. If he was there anyway, couldn't we have heard Bret talk instead of him?
Anyway, based on the rating guidelines given, it was a decent show. I'll be watching again next week. The DX angle is semi-entertaining
(because I'm a huge HBK fan, and I'm hoping they can play a midlife crisis angle), the Bret stuff is great TV and Punk could go in fun
directions. I don't know who Sheamus is, and I don't particularly care, is he a transitional champ?
A solid show for me, and more than enough to keep me tuned in. A quite high 3.5 from me. Would have being a 4 if I cared about Orton/Sheamus but I
wasn't exactly sure what was happening there, and who was supposed to be angry at who for what.
[Edited on 9-2-10 by Devineman]
quote:
Originally posted by rabbxt
*drooooool
quote:
Originally posted by Matte
Working tonight, thankfully. I won't be home to force myself to watch RAW.
Maybe he does this all that the time and I've simply never noticed it before, but did anyone else think Cena sounded a bit like Morgan Freeman after the commercial break when he was getting ready to call out Vince? Just the cadence of his speech and the little drawl he had sounded so familiar to me. Maybe being in Lousianna had something to do with it?
Damn good show. Damn good. No idea where they're going with WM, which is awesome.
- Rhodes pins Orton then Sheamus attacks Orton and Rhodes saves him.. interesting.
- Miz and Big Show win the tag titles and DX teases a break up even more. HBK has to turn heel now. HHH vs HBK vs Taker at WM?
- They set up next week's show quite nicely.
- Tag match or singles match? Why are Cena and Batista involved in this mess?
Damn good show, like I said. 4.5
quote:
Originally posted by ModSquad
Any particular reason why in under three minutes you posted one comment that didn't really add anything, logged out, logged into your other account and posted yet another comment that didn't really add anything?
quote:
Originally posted by Devineman
Who is Jared and why is he pimping Subway? Is he some sort of celebrity or something?
They probably have their own formerly fat guy to sell sandwiches in the UK.
quote:
Originally posted by nOOb
Okay, I am completely convinced that the only reason you didn't know about OO being back is that you were in a coma for the past three years, and that three year coma somehow retroactively went into effect for the five years previous to that. Everyone knows you Jared is. Everyone.
So another solid effort on Raw tonight.... I know Wrestlemania is coming up...but why can't they maintain this all year long and not just from
Royal Rumble on each year. They got the talent. I think Raw is being helped by a really strong midcard with for the first time in years potential
main eventers forth coming.
Sheamus vs Christian was fun, and Sheamus needed the win...too bad it was against Christian, but I have read somewhere (god only knows if its true)
that Vince said that Christian had the worst main event look of anyone he had seen smelling the main event...if that's so it explains
Christian's position in the company. Fun opening non the less.
I really though that Straight Edge Society was going to take in the titles and was quite shocked when it was Miz and Big Show. I sincerely believe
this was the plan even on Smackdown when they switched it. Again I question alot of what I read especially when it deals with wrestling...but if its
true that HBK wasn't fond of Punks gimmick maybe he nixed dropping the titles to them...maybe not. Still the match was great and you just know
that Miz and Show is going to implode in no time. The Miz is so awesome....score a pinfall over HBK too good for him.
You know for the first time ever ...well second Cody looked like he could be a player to me tonight...and not just because he got a win over Orton,
but he showed some personality. The other time I thought this was when Orton RKOed his dear daddy.... still think they missed a golden opportunity
there.
Womens match was blah, and what has happened to Gail Kim she is not as hot as she was. She looks like she has aged 10 eyars in like a few
months...maybe it was the make up. The finisher of hers was awesome though.
Man Dibiase looked like a bitch Id say, no favors for him. I didn't like the promo too much from Cena....and Im glad they are separating the
attack on Cena from Batista from Vince and Bret. I still dont' know what I think of the whole 3 appearances by bret...but I did love his trade
mark at the end saved the segment big for me :-). If the Bret/Vince lasts more than 3 minutes of actual fighting its gonna be a train wreck.
MVP of Raw this week: HBK (all around awesomeness)
Runner UP: Cody Rhodes (He showed me something this week and had decent character development)
Santino's shirt is awesome
Tonights Raw gets a 3.9 another very solid show...main event promo was okay not great so it brought it down for me...womens match too...rest of show
was fairly good.
In closing.... Teddy Long really should have stayed home.
Jared is a dude who was once really fat but lost a ton of weight by eating a diet made up almost exclusively of the healthier items on Subway's (a fastfood deli sandwich franchise) menu. Subway got wind of this and made them his spokesman, which he's been for over a decade. So "Jared" is actually a quasi celebrity at this stage. Probably at least as much as some of the guest hosts.
No time to really expand much, but Raw really sucked me in tonight. Just a lot of good stories going on, and the matches were quite good. The ending surprise put it over the top. 4.6. The Road to Wrestlemania is officially on.
evidently WWE has lost me. I have ZERO interest in the Bret-Vince angle, and I honestly remember being impressed by very little of the show tonight. At best it gets a 2.0 from me, and that is probably being generous
So I watched Million Dollar Man growing up ...but after WM IV....Kicking the ball away from the kid was awesome...I hope that kid wasn' in on it cause it would have been even more awesome to think so.
Okay, you people are insane. And I even thought it was a better than average Raw. So I suppose if we're rating it on a scale it's a 4.5 or 4.6 based on the last 6 months or so, but on a general wrestling scale this was no better than a simple 2.5 show. Solid TV style match, typical advancement of angles, and just a totally overall meh show. Which is a TON better than it has been, but still not a good show by any stretch.
No way Bret Hart vs Vince McMahon will be a singles match. Bret was walking gingerly out there tonight - he can't take bumps anymore. I think
Vince backing out of agreeing will lay the groundwork to set-up Cena/Hart vs Batista/McMahon.
It will never happen, but if the wanted to turn Cena heel they could have him in cahoots with Vince.
So all current ECW talent are free agents in two weeks? I assume most will stay and sign with NXT. I hope they give reason for the vets to stay there
so it isn't just assumed they know they suck and can't compete on the other brands. Christian and Benjamin should surely leave, however
Regal, Goldust, Ryder, Archer and the rest should probably stay. I could see Kovlov heading to Raw to be paired up with Santino if their sitcom is
still in the works.
Three-way tag match is certainly not how I would have booked it. What is the wwe's infatuation with Jared. Must be a sponsorship thing.
Hot damn, that was the closest Raw has come to hitting a home run in a very long time. I'm very comfortable giving it a 4.0 and a great
big "atta boy" because top to bottom that's the most I can remember enjoying a night of wrestling in years. It was like the perfect blend of good
wrestling and good storytelling and I'm officially interested in both WrestleMania and the remainder of the build to it.
Carl Edwards was actually one of the better hosts they've had, I thought; and he was definitely miles and miles ahead of those other mongoloid
NASCAR guys from the last time.
Seeing Christian on Raw was a really nice surprise, good promo, and Sheamus' best match yet where he got to go over strong without doing any
serious damage to Christian. Here's hoping maybe Christian moves with Raw after the ECW finale.
The tag title match was also very good from the match itself to both the pre and post-match shenanigans. CM Punk's deadpan delivery of "bring me
Jared the Subway guy" was hilarious, the match was exciting, and I have no issue with ShowMiz winning the belts as I enjoy Punk and Miz pretty equally
and was able to see the benefits of either team going over.
Did HBK superkick Teddy or Carlito? I know we're supposed to think he kicked Teddy but it sure as hell looked like Carlito took that hit.
Gail vs. Jillian was too short to bother me, and Maryse is getting better and better at talking. I also enjoyed the "vintage nerd" line, although the
meme is getting kind of old now since we've all known Cole is an annoying little catchphrase-spouting suck-ass for years before WWE finally
figured it out.
DiBiase Sr. getting inducted into the HoF? That works, and that old footage made me misty-eyed for the old days.
I rolled my eyes at the Springer bit but I decided not to let the dread of what next week might bring ruin how good tonight's show had been up to
that point, so I didn't let it bother me.
Cody vs. Orton might have annoyed me if it had gone on longer than three minutes, but it didn't and I have to say that all this dissention among
Legacy is the most interesting thing that they've done. When Sheamus came out and attacked Orton I was positive Cody and Sheamus were in cahoots,
especially when Cody came in with the chair, but maybe not? Anyway, it was nice to get to see the actual champion twice in one show for a change and
Cody going over Orton is intriguing.
Sure, I might have been annoyed at Cena immasculating Teddy Jr. but when it led to the best promo I can remember Cena or McMahon doing in
forever I can overlook it. Seriously, I don't know if I was just in a good mood or those guys were really on point or if I just care that much
about Bret or what but I enjoyed the hell out of that promo and the subsequent Bret appearance, even if Bret did look a little old and sad, nearly
killing himself while destroying the Raw set.
More shows like this one, please.
I should probably stop reading/commenting in the wrestling threads because I just don't get it or see it. How is this show anything above average?
I think the most awesome/surreal line uttered in the history of wrestling is when CM Punk said "Luke, Serena...go get me Jared from Subway."
Good show tonight. I thought the second hour wasn't as good as the first, but overall an entertaining outing and I think the WWE is benefiting
from their usual "Road To WrestleMania" stretch, as both Smackdown and RAW have kept me entertained the past few weeks.
Good opening segment and I thought Christian was a nice surprise. I was really enjoying his match with Sheamus until the ending kind of came from out
of nowhere. I don't really have a problem with Sheamus going over, but it seemed like Christian was in control for most of the match and then
Sheamus just hit the big boot and his finisher (what's it called again?) and it was over. The crowd seemed pretty deflated by the finish as
well.
I really dug the triple threat match, but I was disappointed to see Punk/Gallows go out first. I thought they had a legit shot to win the belts (since
Punk on RAW and Smackdown would be awesome) and was actually kind of surprised to see Show and Miz pick up the belts. And Miz is really getting quite
the push now, getting to carry three belts around.
And I'm looking forward to some kind of confrontation between Show-Miz and Jericho on Smackdown. If we were in some kind of alternate Bizarro
world where Jericho was a face, him teaming back up with Edge to take on those two would be pretty awesome.
I loved the stuff with Michaels after the match. This appears to be heading to a full heel turn for him (maybe costing Taker the title at EC is the
final straw?) and I'm all for it. At this point it almost seems like Triple H/Michaels could be plausible for WrestleMania, but I assume the plan
is still for Taker/Michaels to happen.
Maryse's dress was fucking great.
Pretty surprising to see Cody go over Orton. God, I hope Cody isn't getting a push.
I liked the main event segment, though it was maybe a tad overlong (and did we really need to see the Bret/Vince segment from last week again?)
Bret coming out was a nice surprise, as I really wasn't sure if he would be there. Though I agree with C.MontgomeryPunk, I can't see Bret
wrestling a match against Vince. He looked kind of awkward just throwing punches at the security guards. I assume we'll either get Bret/Cena vs.
Vince/Batista or just Cena/Batista one on one with Bret/Vince in their respective corners.
All in all, good RAW tonight. Two good matches in the first hour, nothing offensively bad (well, the Diva's match kind of sucked, mainly because
it was so short) and storylines that are gonna keep me tuning in. I'll go 3.1.
EDIT: I forgot to add that Michaels not doing the kip up because of what happened last week was fucking awesome. It's reasons like that that
Michaels is still the man.
[Edited on 2-9-2010 by the goon]
quote:
Originally posted by DevilSoprano
I should probably stop reading/commenting in the wrestling threads because I just don't get it or see it. How is this show anything above average?
Sheamus/Christian was ok.
Tag match was decent-to-pretty good.
Women's match was a pointless squash.
Both Rhodes and DiBiase were involved in matches that were just angles to advance other people.
Bret/Vince. Combined age? 116. Couldn't care less.
Cena/Batista - I care even less about this.
DX/Shawn - And this I care the least about.
Show didn't do anything particularly wrong, and it was pretty well-paced for a change. My score: 2.5
These scores of 4.5 and higher? I have absolutely no clue where they're coming from. That means tonight's show was in the top 10% of
wrestling shows you've ever seen, ever.
There weren't any particular problems with tonight's show, and I didn't want to cut my wrists open just to know I was still alive in
the middle.
Yes, that's a good thing for RAW these days. I was kind of entertained, and there was some wrestling action for a change.
It wasn't in the top 50% of wrestling shows I've ever seen, never mind top 10%.
I didn't love the show but I get why others did. "Road to Wrestlemania" euphoria, DX stuff, Miz markdom, Bret markdom, Dibiase markdom,
Christian, Sheamus looking good for once, Legacy going somewhere, no Diva crappiness to speak of, the midget did virtually nothing, the host did the
bare minimum. I certainly understand why people who aren't just completely apathetic to WWE like I am would walk away from this show with a lot
of positive to say.
For me it was a show that never really lost my attention, which is a genuine rarity for WWE these days. That certainly speaks very highly of the
show.
4.5s and 4.6s still feel really high to me but wrestling is largely emotional and subjective.
EDIT: And as I've said before, I don't see regarding the ratings as "Top X% of shows ever" to be terribly practical or realistic.
[Edited on 2-9-2010 by LuckyLopez]
That's my point. I didn't even hate this Raw. It was okay, not bad by any stretch but it was nowhere near a great show.
Anything above 3.5 tells me that it was a very good - great show and I just don't see that at all. Just as if anything under a 2.0 would tell me
it was a very bad - horrible show. This was neither. Some okayish matches with the triple threat tag and Christian/Sheamus even if I disagreed with
both winners. But the matches were okay. Again, not very good or great, but not jokes either. And the divas match was kept at the perfect 45 second
length. Punk had a great line. Cena cut a better than normal promo but he still delved into his horrible yelling for moments.
Again, not a bad show by any stretch. And if we're rating Raw on a scale of the past 6 months, maybe I can even see 4.0 ratings. But I
didn't know we were doing that. I thought we were trying to rate the show on the merits of what was on and I just can't see how this is one
of the best Raws you guys have seen in years. It was an okay show. 2.5-3.0 makes sense to me.
quote:
Originally posted by DevilSoprano
I just can't see how this is one of the best Raws you guys have seen in years. It was an okay show.
The mid-4 ratings seem, ummmm, hyperbolic. But after I gave a mid-3 last week, I'm game for a high-3 this week.
I can't say I was "swerved" by Bret coming out at the end... too much of my Smark Brain was still functioning at that point, and KNEW that you
don't short-change a well-hyped tag title match *AND* Michaels' semi-heel turn by putting it mid-show if you don't have a pay-off to
that segment.
The Hitman was the only adequate pay-off. And voila: there he was. As it almost needed to be, otherwise, I might have flip-flopped my ass off and
given this show a mid-2 rating.
Cena as Bret's mouthpiece ain't a bad idea so far. Bret's done great on the promo material he's had that's been "real" so
far, but gone in the shitter on more of the ham-handed scripted stuff where you could tell he was trying to remember lines (which isn't really
surprising given his past as a sub-par "character"). It's even a bit eerie: Cena speaking for Bret has made me appreciate when *he* is on his
promo game, too. Two weeks ago: he owned Vince in a "real" promo. Tonight, his first half was terrible (with his affected fake-angry street voice,
mostly directed at Batista), but his second half (a bit more calm and directed at Vince) was damned good, save a few shitty one-liners.
I think melding those two feuds will end up being a surprising highlight of WM26. I mean, obviously, after tonight, nobody can really be thinking
Bret's gonna be able to hold up his end in an actual one-on-one match, right? Tag match, or highly-active-corner-men SES (sports entertainment
segment). Either or. But it'll click.
Nice opening bit with Christian. But he's not Edge's brother anymore? Not even in storylines where it would suit the storyline to throw that
in? Oh well... I'm thinking he fits better on SD, anyway, where he can frolic with Edge and Jericho and Punk.
About the above ECW/NXT discussion: when did Ryder and Archer ever do anything to be tossed into the same "veteran" hat as Christian, Regal, Goldust,
and Shelton? Those two stay in the NXT oven and keep on baking until one of them is finished cooking, and the other gets future endeavored; and yes,
we all know which is which.
Agree with Christian and Shelton moving on to bigger and better, though. Agree on Regal staying (since he's an oddball "mentor" type who can
still fit in with a young cast, and do some managing, while also wrestling key matches). Agree on Kozlov to RAW if there's any hint of
Santino's thingie being anything more than a dot-com webcast; and even if that's all it is? Hell, Kozlov was at his best as the
uber-likeable/it-having "double-double-E" dork 3 years ago, so going to the "entertainment-y" show may not be a bad idea. Disagree strongly on Goldust
staying on NXT; he's too good (and his goofy character too valuable, especially if you started interacting him with Guest Hosts on RAW) to stay
there with an over-powering gimmick with generic douches trying to break out and get noticed.
Wow: I made an offhand joke in the above preview about them milking Gail/Maryse while doing crap-ass segments and Maryse pretending to be polite, but
then being bitchy in French, as if nobody would ever suspect her of being bitchy. Whee? Also, for the second week in a row, I consulted OOfficial
French Bi-Linguist Erin Anderson about this issue, and she assures me that Maryse's hidden promo translates to "What the fuck is wrong with you,
I have better things to do than to watch wrestling and help you scoop Keller, you dicklicker." Wow: I don't know what Gail ever did to Maryse,
but that's a pretty brutal verbal smackdown!
I'd say the wrong team won the tag titles, but after rolling it around in my brain all afternoon, it really did amount to a toss-up for me. Punk
is so red-hot right now that maybe you just don't fuck with success. Miz (even with a singles title) is the opposite, and has entered
wheel-spinning phase the past month or two, so this re-energizes him due to: (a) solid interactions with his partner, who he is using/abusing THE
EXACT SAME WAY as Show's old partner did, and (b) having to visit SD regularly, where both Show *and* Miz's old partners are hanging out,
leading to potentially awesome interactions.
If somebody hasn't already booked a throw-away 20 minute Friday Night Delight featuring Jericho/Morrison vs. Show/Miz, with all sorts of schmozzy
in-fighty elements, then WWE are retarded.
Also: ShowMiz. I'll endorse it. I didn't invent it, like I did JeriShow (or at least, I beat the internet to it, so far as I know), but
I'll endorse it. Doubly so since Show insisted upon it, and Miz demured faster than you could blink. Perfect amplification/semi-reversal of the
Show/Jericho dynamic: Show learned. Show adapted. Show makes little man his bitch. Nice.
Santino's new shirt may become the first new wrestling shirt I wear since 2004. I actually PAID FOR my own Kaientai/EVIL shirt in '04, and
still wear it today. Since then, I've been given almost a dozen freebies of the newer shirts, as will happen to any internet semi-star when he
makes his backstage rounds, and I cannot wear that shit in public. Not a one of them.
"Beware the Cobra," however? Yeah, that's a definite maybe. Especially if I didn't have to pay for it.
3.7.
Rick
EDITED TO ADD: in the time I took typing that, two other people latched onto Punk's perfectly-delivered line, "Luke, Serena: bring me Jared from
Subway." True story: when he delivered it, my real-time Guest Commentary From The Couch was "Wow. There's a sentence that has never been uttered
before in the history of the English language." Said commentary was met with only tepid chuckles. D'oh. I'm glad I'm not the only one
who was thinking along those lines. It was almost Jabba-esque in its own "Bring the Wookie Chewbacca to Me" sort of way. Diabolical. And awesome.
[Edited on 2-9-2010 by OORick]
A 'cornerman' WM with Hart/McMahon would suck.
It would basically blow the most legitimate feud in recent WWE history and turn it into the McMahon/Trump match again.
The way they are currently playing it out, with Cena hyping the whole 'old school respect' thing works with a straight match.
All that needs to really happen, is to put Hart and McMahon in a prerecorded street match for 5 minutes or so and let us watch Bret beat the toffee
out of Vince. They could go all out and drag the match on by using the garage gimmicks or whatever, but the main point stands that I'll buy WM
purely to see Bret KILL McMahon.
Putting him in the corner of something with a one punch layout at the end would be a huge anti-climax to what they could possibly do with it.
Surely, even somebody in the state of Bret could swing a few chairs and Kendo sticks? We aren't talking about a full on 5 star classic here no
matter what, so why bother with the formalities of the live event, and get most of it on tape, then have them finish in the ring. That means about 60
seconds of work for Bret on the actual night.
I can also see HBK jumping Bret in some sort of agreement with McMahon to trade him to SD, as part of his heel turn.
This ends with Vince in a Sharpshooter, tapping out for real, and even if a bell rings, it doesn't get released, because this ain't no
pre-scripted horseshit Sharpshooter. This one's for REALZ, bitches~!
That's all I need for happiness and closure.
And it doesn't have to be a one-on-one match for that. After seeing tonight what Bret's physicality level really is at this point: I'm
probably fine saying I don't even WANT it to be a one-on-one.
A cornermen sports entertainment segment -- along the lines of Vince/Trump or Jericho/Rourke -- would probably be a bit thin, but it'd get the
job done if that's all Bret can do. The tag match really is the one I'm hoping for, though... Cena could even be the ULTIMATE Ricky Morton,
milking the babyface-in-peril out of a sense of etiquette as he tries to "protect" Bret, then all Bret has to do is tag in at the perfect moment, do
90 killer seconds of heat sequence, maybe a bit longer for a Pier Four Brawl/Schmozz, and then hit the finish: Bret over Vince, leaving Cena/Batista
to settle up another day.
It's almost perfect, if you do it that way.
BTW: can't believe I didn't think of this till now, but... how about Michaels going batshit on SD this week, but Teddy keeps saying he
can't do anything as far as trades go.... but then Vince shows up (or passes a message along through his surrogate, Vickie Guerrero) that says
HBK *is* traded to SD. And in return, RAW is getting Batista. *da da ddduuuuuuuuummmmmm*
Cena/Batista is on for real. HBK can punk out R-Truth and get in the Chamber to set up SD's WM26 matches (Michaels/Taker non-title, Edge/Jericho
for the title, is my idea). Then Taker goes away to have major joint replacement surgery and Shawn turns back babyface, and I'd give a limb for
an extended Punk/Michaels feud with full Jesus vs. Jesus overtones in play. NEE HAW~!
Works for me. Now, just make sure it works for Shawn and his "I can't work Tuesday nights because it makes the Baby Jesus cry" routine....
Rick
I don't understand why so many people are so offended by a score of 4-4.6 for this show. What do you guys expect from RAW exactly? This had a
pretty good Christian/Sheamus opener that hit on several bullet points and FINALLY did what you all have been complaining about every week and
that's give Sheamus a credible win without making Christian look bad. This had a great and long triple threat elimination match for the tag
titles that continued a few different angles and gave us a fresh new tag team to support as champs. This advanced the main event angle without one of
the main players in it. They advanced SEVERAL storylines tonight - DX implosion, Bret/Vince/Cena/Batista, Miz/Big Show as a team, Sheamus fighting for
respect, the Legacy implosion that's going better than I expected, the woman's title match, even Santino/Swagger got a mention and slight
build, pretty much nothing was ignored except MVP. The only bad point was a harmless womans match that lasted, what a minute, and had Maryse on
commentary. The guest host seemed happy to be there, didn't fuck anything up, they built to next week's RAW well, and Jared from Subway even
made a non-useless appearance. Everything just felt different and fresh.. and the road to WM is unpredictable and makes for some compelling TV.
Everything flowed well, was entertaining, and never a dull moment. This would be a 4.5 show even if RA Wwas good every week. Please, oh dear fantasy
bookers, tell me how to make RAW a 5.0 show, and please don't include the words 'Evan Bourne' in the post please.
quote:
Nice opening bit with Christian. But he's not Edge's brother anymore? Not even in storylines where it would suit the storyline to throw that in? Oh well... I'm thinking he fits better on SD, anyway, where he can frolic with Edge and Jericho and Punk.
About the above ECW/NXT discussion: when did Ryder and Archer ever do anything to be tossed into the same "veteran" hat as Christian, Regal, Goldust, and Shelton? Those two stay in the NXT oven and keep on baking until one of them is finished cooking, and the other gets future endeavored; and yes, we all know which is which.
To quote The Simpsons regarding Jared from Subway -
"He used to be fat, now he's just ugly."
Just a few thoughts before I go out in this latest blizzard:
- Glad to see my prediction came true that Carl Edwards would be 900x better than Goofus and Goofus from a few months ago.
- Overall good show with decent matches and nothing even remotely awful, at least from my perspective.
- I understand the mixed voting on the show. I think there are two camps here (way more actually, but two in general). The first is looking at RAW
in the context of all RAW's ever and saying "That wasn't SO special." It's not that this camp thinks it was awful (well, except for
Moose who is in his own camp, but even HE didn't give his usual 0.0 this week), it's just that the memories of the glory years makes it
difficult to view last night as one of the best RAW's ever.
The second camp is generally looking at RAW in the context of the past few years of shit we've been presented. From that point of view, 4.5 is
not surprising at all. Hell, 4.8 is even reasonable in my opinion. I think this group is just so excited to have a decent show that didn't suck
that the ratings become inflated. There are some people that appear to truly believe this was a great effort, and has been said before, everyone is
allowed to have their own opinion. No opinion is wrong.
I think I'm somewhere in the middle. I recognize this was a pretty dang good show for the RAW of today. I also remember there was a time
where this kind of show would've been viewed as a "solid" week but not memorable beyond the next month. So for me, I'd go with a
3.4. I generally enjoyed myself, but I think the only reason this show might be memorable and special is because so many shows in the past few
years have been bad.
- Miz IS awesome. He is the best partner for Show. I know plenty of people love Jericho, but his act has grown very blah to me. Miz feels a lot
more energetic, exciting, and face-slappable. When I see/hear Miz, I want someone to kick his ass. When I see/hear Jericho, I hear Charlie
Brown's teacher. I also enjoy the name ShowMiz. A lot.
- Still don't like Maryse. Sorry. I really have no interest now since I found that GLOW video with that Heavy Metal blonde chick.
- Don't know if this was mentioned, but Carl Edwards also advertises for Subway (I'd imagine his car is sponsored at least in part by them),
so that might explain Jared being there too. I would've KILLED to see the SES shave Jared, but then he would just be ugly and bald too. On
second thought, his hair sucks anyway. He shoulda took a hit for the team on that one.
- Never mind about the initial rating. I'm going with 0.0 because Carl Edwards stayed fully clothed. I was kind of hoping to see him and
Cena in a tag match where they both took off their shirts in unison to the collective squeeeeeeeee of young girls (and twinks). Carl almost looks
like he could be Cena's little brother or something. Yes, I know I am obsessed with Carl. Deal with it!
- One last thing about the ratings. I'm wondering if the show seemed more exciting to some because of the crowd. They were REALLY into it much
of the night. A good crowd always makes a show feel more exciting in my opinion. WWE lucked out being in Louisiana last night. That might explain a
bit of the bump in some ratings.
I was quite enjoying Raw last night Christian-Sheamus was good, Nascar guy wasn�t too horrible and CM Punk is amazing. Then right before the tag title match POW the cable went out for the 5th time since Saturday stupid fucking blizzards and stupid fucking Comcast!!!
Very good show ...
Sheamus finally gets a clean win against a quality opponent - that's his first as Champ that I can recall (Evan Bourne does not count!)
I really think Sheamus has to win the Chamber match - if he drops the strap in 2 weeks, the last 3 months of build up/title run with him would be a
waste - because unless he gets a few decent wins under his belt - once he loses the belt he'll drop very fast to mid card status and never come
back
Christian teasing a RAW return was nice - so everyone in ECW is a FA in 2 weeks?, I wonder if this includes the younger stars that have been on the
show for a while now (Yoshii, Archer, Ryder, etc ...) or will they remain in NXT as the headliners until we get to know some of the FCW talent
Was very excited for tag match - I like the elimination style matches better than the first one to get pin wins, but that's my personal
opinion
Punk's line of "go get me Jared from Subway" was very funny
Only problem I had with the tag match was the commercial break right when the match started - and when we get back from the break the SES is pinned
and eliminated in about 1 minute (boo!)
ShowMiz! awesome!!! So happy to see that the end of DX is so close
HBK's tail spin into the obsessive border line insane HBK is great - Sweet Chin Music to Teddy Long! Didn't see that coming!
Rhodes/Orton - is Cody in cahoots with Sheamus? I can see Rhodes helping Sheamus wins the Elimination Chamber - which would kill 2 birds with one
stone - Orton turns face (the crowds have been popping for him lately, his time as Super-Heel are over for now) and sets up a Triple Threat Match at
WM (Orton v. Rhodes v. Dibiase)
Diva match - more specifically Maryse's commentary was good, but too short - Cole had to cut her off mid sentance because the match ended very
abruptly
Cena / Dibiase no contest - I would have liked to hear Dibiase announced as the winner by DQ, thus adding a bit more fuel to the heat with Rhodes
(Told you I'm better than you, I beat Cena you didn't)
Cartoon Vince makes me laugh - call me a slappy - but his strut and facial expressions are priceless - "Personally I don't like you John, but
business wise I love you!" great line
Conversely super-serious Cena comes off as super-cheesy to me - I really don't enjoy his promos when his voice changes to the "I'm yelling
because this is serious" voice
Brett coming out was great - although I can't see him in a match (that piece of A/V equipment nearly took him out for good!) -I'd like to
see Brett invade SD this week too, and start ripping up the set for that show too!
At WM I don't think we'll even see a tag match - I think we are destined to see Cena v. Bats with Brett & Vince in their respective corners,
with some stipulation - like winner gets the loser alone & handcuffed in the ring for 5 minutes, and we get to see Brett unload on Vince for 5
straight minutes with chair shots and hockey punches and finishing it up with Vince bent backwards in the sharp shooter
High Points -
HBK = Crazy
Brett destroys set of RAW
ShowMiz wins!
Legacy implosion
Sheamus with a clean win (WWE realizing that the CHAMP has to be able to win matches to legitimize himself)
Low Points -
Not enough SES in ring
Maryse's commentary getting cut short
No MVP, Swagger, Bourne, Mark Henry, only a quick shot of Carlito back stage - so once the ECW free agents get picked up by RAW - I suppose we will
see even less of these mid carders - which is a bit of a shame because everyone except Henry can put on an entertaining match
quote:
Originally posted by OORick
Doubly so since Show insisted upon it, and Miz demured faster than you could blink. Perfect amplification/semi-reversal of the Show/Jericho dynamic: Show learned. Show adapted. Show makes little man his bitch. Nice.
Considering there was a stretch of weeks from like...October-December where people would give pre-show rants then give pre-show 1.0s and 0.0s, or say
something to the effect of "Hornswoggle was on tv for more than a minute, 0.5 for the show", I find it strange people even bother to complain when the
ratings go the other way in an extreme way. The ratings are for however a person feels like rating a show. There doesn't seem to be any sort of
guideline that anyone actually follows (I know one exists and have read it - doesn't seem to matter a lot of the time). Until ratings are
actually tabulated and recorded and analyzed, there's no reason for anyone to really get banged up about anyone's ratings.
Raw gets over a 3.0 because the show was tight the whole way with action.
It gets over a 4.0 because it took nothing off the table during the 2 hours.
It gets over a 4.5 because it gave us tons of change that put new stuff on the table.
We had a title change, a probable heel turn for a major star that many felt could never happen again, Legacy imploding in a slow but moving storyline,
Santino's new shirt, Christian showing up and-, in turn helping Sheamus get his first big victory (that he should have gotten at RR, but fine),
the Champ comes back later in the program to show he hasn't forgotten about Orton, great elimination tag match (only qualm for the entire night
being that they didn't need to have Punk/Gallows lose and just not do the elimination gimmick), fake kip ups, Maryse....just Maryse, Cena having
another great promo, and Bret coming for revenge.
There's a lot to be excited for, and there weren't any letdowns. I stand by my (whatever it means) 4.6.
Nice surprise opener with Christian and Sheamus. His appearance was clearly done for the sole purpose of pimping NXT. I have never had a problem with
another brands champion taking the pinfall. Although that momentum swinging last 30 seconds came out of nowhere.
I have to say that all the backstage and in ring stuff going on between Legacy is the most interesting stuff they've ever done. For the simple
fact that you don't know where any of this is going yet. Can anyone explain Sheamus's hard on for Orton these last few weeks? I hope this
doesn't lead to a face turn by him. He has been popping the crowd a lot lately, but it would be a major mistake in my opinion.
The triple threat elimination match was excellent. It was obvious that DX was dropping the belts, the only question was to whom. You can make an
arguement for both ShowMiz and Straight Edge, considering how hot Punk and Miz are at the moment. But just seeing Miz carrying around 3 belts, after
the match, made a believer out of me.
If Maryse wasn't already great to begin with, she went ahead and threw that idiot Michael Cole under the bus and became even greater!
Just when Cena does something good like delivering a calm, straight to the point promo, he comes back this week and reverts back to form....loud,
obnoxious, pandering Cena. As much as I like Bret Hart, seeing him back in the ring doesn't look like its going to be a very good visual.
That's why its becoming more and more obvious that this will be a tag match involving both Cena and Batista....yippee!!
I think the true star of tonight's show was Shawn Michaels. He is playing this "gone over the edge" character beautifully. Something tells me
that R-Truth is going to get the Kofi treatment at the Elimination Chamber match. Michael's will be taking that spot one way or another.
Not a bad show...good guest hosting by Carl Edwards...final score 3.25
quote:
They probably have their own formerly fat guy to sell sandwiches in the UK.
Good show. Nothing OMG but that could be driven by getting spoilers because watching it on West Coast time.
Liked the DX stuff, but HBK looks like an idiot for not showing up on last week's SD when he COULD and stirring shit up then.
Does the demise of DX mean Hornswaggle get's taken off TV for the time being?
For all the "Moments Ago" shit they do overall, it would be nice to do that on the Maryse stuff where she speaks French and...actually tell people
what she said. I'm sure :30 seconds could be found and repurposed for that.
And within these threads there should be some equal opportunity WTFing????? re: some of the ratings. I see a "2.0 at best" which seems like it
should be getting called out for being on the low/stupid side.
quote:
Originally posted by williamssl
Does the demise of DX mean Hornswaggle get's taken off TV for the time being?
quote:
Originally posted by Devineman
EDIT : Nobody bother with the Live Chat thing any more?
DOUBLE EDIT : Guess not, I may as well carry on in this post then.
quote:
Originally posted by The Riot Act
Maybe he does this all that the time and I've simply never noticed it before, but did anyone else think Cena sounded a bit like Morgan Freeman after the commercial break when he was getting ready to call out Vince? Just the cadence of his speech and the little drawl he had sounded so familiar to me. Maybe being in Lousianna had something to do with it?
quote:
Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
I don't understand why so many people are so offended by a score of 4-4.6 for this show. What do you guys expect from RAW exactly? This had a pretty good Christian/Sheamus opener that hit on several bullet points and FINALLY did what you all have been complaining about every week and that's give Sheamus a credible win without making Christian look bad. This had a great and long triple threat elimination match for the tag titles that continued a few different angles and gave us a fresh new tag team to support as champs. This advanced the main event angle without one of the main players in it. They advanced SEVERAL storylines tonight - DX implosion, Bret/Vince/Cena/Batista, Miz/Big Show as a team, Sheamus fighting for respect, the Legacy implosion that's going better than I expected, the woman's title match, even Santino/Swagger got a mention and slight build, pretty much nothing was ignored except MVP. The only bad point was a harmless womans match that lasted, what a minute, and had Maryse on commentary. The guest host seemed happy to be there, didn't fuck anything up, they built to next week's RAW well, and Jared from Subway even made a non-useless appearance. Everything just felt different and fresh.. and the road to WM is unpredictable and makes for some compelling TV. Everything flowed well, was entertaining, and never a dull moment. This would be a 4.5 show even if RA Wwas good every week. Please, oh dear fantasy bookers, tell me how to make RAW a 5.0 show, and please don't include the words 'Evan Bourne' in the post please.
quote:
Originally posted by S Kid J E T S 48
Considering there was a stretch of weeks from like...October-December where people would give pre-show rants then give pre-show 1.0s and 0.0s, or say something to the effect of "Hornswoggle was on tv for more than a minute, 0.5 for the show", I find it strange people even bother to complain when the ratings go the other way in an extreme way.
quote:
The ratings are for however a person feels like rating a show. There doesn't seem to be any sort of guideline that anyone actually follows (I know one exists and have read it - doesn't seem to matter a lot of the time). Until ratings are actually tabulated and recorded and analyzed, there's no reason for anyone to really get banged up about anyone's ratings.
quote:
# Consider a 5.0 to be an almost unattainable "perfect storm" of awesome (not just a well-put-together show, but almost certainly requiring something special/unique in the form of "stunt booking"). If it happens, it'll be remembered fondly and with clarity for years to come.
# A 4.0 should be considered "as good as we can reasonably hope for"; this is an excellent show in the "Sustainable Episodic Television" mold, with nothing special or fancy. A lot of fun in and of itself, and also with enough juice to get you pumped for tuning in again next time.
# A 3.0 is where cracks begin to appear, and is more of a show in the vein of "the sort of episode we've come to expect"; this sort of show does what it needs to, but without any real sizzle; it isn't counter-productive at all, but it will also be forgotten very quickly.
# A 2.0 is a show that has more misses than hits, and falls below any fair expectations; this is a show that will still have SOME redeeming qualities, although it's also a show that you'd prefer to watch on DVR with a fast-forward button at your command.
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLopez
- They're nonplussed by Legacy drama since in the past they've been given no reason to care about Legacy so Dibiase and Rhodes are starting more or less from 0 on this?
Eh, I don't know how much that Rhodes segment would have worked if they had gone with it, but clearly that is a good example of something last
night's Legacy moments were missing. That past segment was built largely on a man who IS over in Dusty Rhodes and it makes a lot of sense that
Cody might have been able to leech heat off his father and do something with it to make it his own. Maybe it would have failed, maybe not.
But the definite problem I have with Legacy now is that they're all we've got and I just don't give a shit about either one of them.
Neither has ever done a thing to make me give a shit about them. And after what feels like a lifetime of them playing generic bootlickers to Orton I
really don't care that they're standing up to him because I don't care about them. Maybe others do, and Dibiase seems to have a little
support from some at least so I guess he's done SOMETHING to make an impression in some.
But for the most part I think it goes back to the old WWE midcard problem. You can't just push a guy out of nowhere if he doesn't have a
foundation to build upon. Maybe if he's damn good or if the booking really clicks it will work, but most of the time you're starting from
square one with these guys because we really had no reason to give a shit about them before now. Nothing you can do about that now, but its why the
Legacy stuff last night was so underwhelming for myself and others.
quote:
I think using hyperbolic anecdotal evidence to support ratings is pretty counter productive, since at best what you just told me was that the 4.6 you gave is as legitimate as the 0.0 someone gave before a show... which wasn't terrible legitimate.
Just out of interest, regarding Bret, do you guys think the majority of fans currently watching WWE were around during the Screwjob?
When Bret was tearing down the AV equipment, he did give a quick "COME ON!" which I took as him shouting at the crowd to pop a bit louder.
Mind you, I was half interested in him ripping up the equipment until the pyro went off, that was sort of deflating. It would have been much more
effective without it, it made the stunt look preplanned, fake and cheap. Of course, it was all of those things, but I'd like the suspension of
disbelief, and that pyro just killed it.
Hell, they could have even done the whole " that was a shoot" thing in the sheets and half of the audience would have believed it, especially if
people from backstage would have come to restrain him.
I don't know, maybe it's just me and my age, but in my opinion the Montreal Screwjob is the very essence of the Mr. McMahon character. It
feels like one of those movies where the bad guy in the first one comes back at the end of the sequel to kick some ass, it has a nice circularness to
it.
Due to this, and the fact that the IWC (and most wrestling fans) have been talking about this nearly non-stop since it happened, this angle should be
HUGE and all parties should be going all out. For me personally (as I never really watched WCW until it was gone), this is bigger than the Invasion.
During the Invasion, you knew that at the end of it all, most of the guys there didn't really hate each other and it was hard to sit there
thinking "why have DDP and the Undertaker got a problem?".
This one though, has that edge of believability. We all know that these guys really did dislike each other, really do get pissed off over how they
were both treated by the other, and really do have a point when they accuse each other of screwing them. This makes it far easier to mentally get in
to the feud, and every wrestling fan of the past 13 years has got to be rooting for Vince to finally get his comeuppance, and from the guy that
started it all. Thinking about it, this is probably the most perfect way for Vince to retire as an on-screen character.
I don't know. For the first time since Hardy/Edge, you can taste the tension and are looking out for the "half-shoot" remarks that are being
made. Vince vs Bret has given me the first reason to care about wrestling in a long time, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Loads of
guys who were watching during the Attitude Era and remember the big fuss about it will have an interested 10 minute channel surf.
This is why I was a bit disappointed that Cena was giving the final promo last night, despite it's excellence. Bret needed to be the one saying
all of those things, throwing in cheap remarks that had us all thinking "wait, did he mean that?". Bret needed to be the one looking at a bunch of
security guards and telling Vince that he would need a tank to stop him getting to him. Ok, so he's a fat, slightly balding middle aged man who
is pretty slow. It doesn't matter, so were Flair and Hogan and they still generated gallons of heat.
Both men can channel that real emotion towards each other into their characters, and it will have people glued to their TV. 13 years builds a lot of
deep seated resentment.
Hell, if they were really clever and wanted to play up the money thing, WWE should bring out a Owen Hart's Greatest Hits DVD and Bret can go nuts
over it. That's promotion that you just can't buy.
If Bret cannot perform and Cena needs to be the muscle man then fine, but Cena shouldn't be the muscle man AND the promo guy.
They have the chance to do something that was on par with Austin/McMahon for tension building, and awesomeness. Maybe they're just starting
slowly, and we will ge to this level. The level where Vince goes into full "screw" mode, and Bret never quites gets his hands on him. Bret
doesn't even need to take any more of a beating than Batista gave him, it's all about building that frustration that Bret can't get his
hands on him. They did this yesterday, but it could have been so much more.
Oh well, rant over.
quote:
Originally posted by S Kid J E T S 48
It's like telling Lucky to get off his high horse,
quote:
I think we find enough reference points and discussion points without a rating system. It actually winds up being a negative thing if the message boards get clogged up with discussions about how people rate things, and eliminates the actual point of this...to discuss the shows.
One thing I wish this angle had that they clearly are steering away from...NO ONE is on Vince's side. His biggest ally hugged the enemy.
Anyone knows that the Montreal screw job has 2 sides to it. Both camps are quite strong. NOw I get what they are doing, Vince has to be a asshole so
he can get the heal heat. But I think there could still be some shades of grey. What made the screwjob so huge was
1. It happened
2. Both sides had a legitamate gripe.
This has been argued for 12 years...and now everyone is against Vince. Surely some of these wrestlers would feel that Bret was wrong too. I know its
not the story they are telling but I wish it could have somehow been part of the dynamic. This is why HBK vs Bret would have been a good way to
go...but I suspect that Bret and HBK made it clear they wanted nothing to do with it. HBK out of the picture...is slightly anti-climatic to me. Yes
it was a feel good moment...but this story needed HBK.
I hate that not even a few years ago HBK uttered these lines in what was probably his best Promo ever.
"If Bret Hart was to look me eye to eye like a man, Id say hitman...I screwed you once...Id screw you again"
Thats alot to leave out of this current angle.
[Edited on 2-9-2010 by nobledictator]
I agree that they should hit the merits of both sides a bit more, but you're leaving out the fact that HBK did say to Bret that he didn't regret being in on the screwjob, and that he did so at the beginning of this angle before the hug.
Punk owns wrasslin' right now. Best all-rounder for years for me.
And Skid, I did like some things about Raw. I liked that the divas match was only 45 seconds and Gail didn't botch anything. I liked that Sheamus
and Christian had a solid match even if it felt like it did nothing. I LOVED Punk's line about Jared.
But none of those 3 things make it seem like anything...oh wait, I can't say it was an okay show again otherwise Chris will get his douchepanties
in a twist.
I also noticed Cena's accent today. He went more southern all of a sudden.
But then I also noticed his Anne reference, which was just plain weird.
quote:
Originally posted by nobledictator
One thing I wish this angle had that they clearly are steering away from...NO ONE is on Vince's side.
[Edited on 2-9-2010 by nobledictator]
Its different though...Batista did it more as a business thing not necessarily he believed that Bret was wrong.
Maryse was dumping on her. Just watched it again to get it right...
You smell like trash.
It's horrible. I could smell you from 100 feet away.
I pity you. You're a little girl.
You're a nobody. You're a nobody.
High points of the show for me -
-I thought Christian vs. Sheamus was really good but I didn't like Christian looking like a bitch in the finish. But that might just be because
I'm losing more and more faith in Sheamus as champion each week, coupled by the fact that this match would've had the complete opposite
finish three months ago.
-As with everyone else, I could watch two hours of just CM Punk and The Straight-Edge Society. I think he's basically starting to reach
Rock/Austin heights of mic skills at this point.
-Maryse calling Michael Cole "vintage nerd" was another high point of the night. She is really awesome and I think she's getting better and
better.
Low Points -
-The Straight Edge Society NOT winning the tag belts. I do see the potential in Show/Miz but I just don't get why you don't have the SES
get the belts, as much of an upswing as they're on. I can only hope this means they've got singles belts in mind for Punk and Gallows but
I'm not holding out hope.
-Bret Hart stumbling around like a drunken sailor during his beatdown on Vince and the destruction of the set that followed. I counted a grand total
of two times that Bret seemed to just completely lose his footing and fall on his ass. As much as it pains me to say it, he either needs to train his
ass off in the next couple of months or they really need to keep him out of the physical side of things.
3.0
EDIT - Wicked Frost's post above just made me love Maryse even more.
[Edited on 2-9-2010 by gobbledygooker]
quote:
Originally posted by DevilSoprano
And Skid, I did like some things about Raw. I liked that the divas match was only 45 seconds and Gail didn't botch anything. I liked that Sheamus and Christian had a solid match even if it felt like it did nothing. I LOVED Punk's line about Jared.
quote:
Originally posted by nobledictator
Its different though...Batista did it more as a business thing not necessarily he believed that Bret was wrong.
There isn't a UK equivalent of Jared, Subway here just kind of sprung up overnight and over the past three years they've gotten everywhere.
There seem to be like ten Subways to every McDonalds. But Jared never made it over here. I'm familiar with him, but only because he's been
in WWE about a dozen times before.
I wasn't as high on the show as many of you. Christian-Sheamus was a nice surprise, and I was thankful to see Sheamus finally get a meaningful
solid win, and the guest host was better than I expected (and kept to small, effective doses).
The women's match was thankfully short and had Maryse to cover up the bland in the ring. The Punk promo and the tag match were good. The DX stuff
was very interesting, though I think Michaels always looks a bit silly when he gets shouty-angry, which spoilt the backstage "snap" a bit for me (it
also harmed the effectiveness of his exit from the Rumble when he started screaming at himself in the aisle right before he walked backstage).
The main event promo was alright. I think Cena's been consistently good recently, and I'm always happy to see him away from Orton, HHH and
Michaels - although of course, next week we get Cena vs Triple H. Whoop-de-fucking-doo. Like their last nine million matches haven't
satisfied everyone's need to see them wrestle. Bret looked awkward as hell during his part of the brawl, but Cena and Vince were on form. And
Bret is still Bret, so his contributions were enjoyable.
The Legacy breakup still vaguely interests me, though I've no idea why. Sheamus being so involved with them is intriguing as well, because I
can't fathom why it's happening. Is he in cahoots with Cody? Is there going to be a Sheamus and Legacy four-way match at
WrestleMania? I'm struggling to see the endgame of this storyline, perhaps it's just because of the elimination chamber match.
I didn't even know Ted DiBiase wasn't already in the Hall of Fame.
Everything on the show was good, great or at least attention-getting but it didn't feel like a revelation to me. I've been enjoying a lot of
episodes of Raw recently.
quote:
Originally posted by The Riot Act
Maybe he does this all that the time and I've simply never noticed it before, but did anyone else think Cena sounded a bit like Morgan Freeman after the commercial break when he was getting ready to call out Vince? Just the cadence of his speech and the little drawl he had sounded so familiar to me. Maybe being in Lousianna had something to do with it?
quote:
Originally posted by nobledictator
One thing I wish this angle had that they clearly are steering away from...NO ONE is on Vince's side. His biggest ally hugged the enemy.
quote:
Originally posted by OORick
Nice opening bit with Christian. But he's not Edge's brother anymore?
quote:
I'd say the wrong team won the tag titles, but after rolling it around in my brain all afternoon, it really did amount to a toss-up for me. Punk is so red-hot right now that maybe you just don't fuck with success. Miz (even with a singles title) is the opposite, and has entered wheel-spinning phase the past month or two, so this re-energizes him due to: (a) solid interactions with his partner, who he is using/abusing THE EXACT SAME WAY as Show's old partner did, and (b) having to visit SD regularly, where both Show *and* Miz's old partners are hanging out, leading to potentially awesome interactions.
quote:
- They were nonplussed by a forgettable Sheamus/Christian match since even though it was the closest Sheamus has come to credible in months it was still a throwaway and forgettable match and a win over someone who's really no higher on the WWE pecking order than Sheamus and who needs some credibility himself?
- They're nonplussed by the tag title change because Miz/Show feels like a redo of Jericho/Show and seems like it could be a poor choice since it probably means one of Miz's titles being ignored at the benefit of the other?
- They're nonplussed by the Bret Hart stuff because they lost interest in the story a decade ago and have no real desire to watch a 60-year-old non-wrestler compete against a 50-year-old retired wrestler who may or may not be physically limited by a stroke?
- They're nonplussed by DX drama because they've seen HBK and HHH fight so many times in the past they have no need to see it happen again?
- They're nonplussed by Legacy drama since in the past they've been given no reason to care about Legacy so Dibiase and Rhodes are starting more or less from 0 on this?
I just got finished watching the show a bit ago, and wanted to put in two quick points:
First, I thought that Bret actually looked alright during his physical segment. Sure, he's not what he was, but I think he can hold up his end
of a garbagey brawl just fine. His punches and kicks looked decent (albeit short) against the security, and the falling down during the AV smashing
was because it looked the last item was a bit heavier than he expected. For a long-retired wrestler, I think he'll do fine in whatever WM will
require.
Second, I really hope that they do something more with the EC singles matches next week. One thought I had was doing it as a beat the clock
challenge, with the fastest pin getting the 6 slot, and the fastest loser getting the 1 slot. Likewise with the second and third fastest winners
getting 4 and 5, respectively, and the losers getting 2 and 3. It would be nice motivation for the participants, and add some drama to the matches.
quote:
Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
I was mainly concerned with the idea that people are STUNNED STUNNED STUNNED that this show would get a good ratings from people... if they wanna step on their soapbox about why this show wasn't good, then I am generally curious as to what WOULD make the show good in their eyes.
quote:
Originally posted by FistHiccups
I liked Raw, but I've liked a lot of Raws this year and late last year. I don't understand why people found this week's particularly different from every other week. To me, it makes sense that people that hate (or are indifferent to) Raw every week would feel the same way about it this week and that they'd be confused as to why some folks are going nuts for this week's show. I'm somewhat stunned by reactions like Chris is Good's, where this week was the best episode in years. To me it was just the same as most recent weeks. But evidently, this week Raw was massively different for some people than it was for others. It's just a case of us all second-guessing each other's reactions. To you it seems that people who still didn't like Raw this week are too hard to please. To me it's like people that suddenly loved Raw this week got some weird, new, different vibe out of the show that I missed.
double post sorry
[Edited on 2-10-2010 by Psycho Penguin]
quote:
Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
1. Christian vs Sheamus was a fine match where neither guy lost any credibility and Christian gained some by going head to head with the WWE champion. Yeah, Sheamus hasn't really DONE much as champ, but that's why you need to put him up against guys like Christian and Mysterio and have him WIN. Guys that can afford a loss. Not someone like Punk who has momentum or a guy like Swagger which would be like beating Noble at this point. People complained for weeks that Sheamus needed a big win, he got one, and now it's 'they should have done it weeks ago'. Sure, but what does that have to do with THIS show and THIS match?
quote:
2. Okay, so now they're worried about Miz and Show in future weeks. Fine. What does that have to do with THIS show and THIS match? The fact they're basically admitting it's a redo of Jerishow and Miz is a better partner than Jericho clearly shows they have SOME plan here, and hey DX isn't champs any more. No one liked when they were, and now they don't like MizShow. So WHO should be tag champs?
quote:
3. The same people that were marking out on January 4th? If they don't like the angle, fine, but at least it's using big name wrestlers and not guys like Lashley and Umaga. And it doesn't seem like as big a waste of time as usual since there has been closure wanted on Bret vs Vince for over a decade on the internet.
quote:
4. How often has HBK been the heel? How often has Undertaker been potentially involved? What does that have to do with how the angle was handled last night?
quote:
5. So they have had zero reason to care in the past and this means they shouldn't care no matter what the angle does or where it goes?
quote:
Your entire post seemed to be 'people didn't care before so they shouldn't care now, and this show should not be judged by the merits of what happened last night but instead what happened 5 years ago and what might happen 2 months from now.' Ridiculous. I judge on a week to week basis to see how angle are developing and where the chances of them going are, but I won't give a show a 2.0 just because I think they might fuck an angle up next month or fucked it up a month ago if I liked what they did on that particular show.
quote:
There IS a lot of negativity on the internet and I shouldn't be criticized for 'standing on a soapbox' for pointing that out. How many posts criticized the high ratings a few people gave already? More than the posts bitching about the low ratings, that's for sure.
I think a proper adult would realize I'm not talking about you since I was talking about people bitching about me and others giving it a 4+ when
you didn't bitch. Therefore I wasn't including you. I was including the posts that bitched. Because they were the negative ones.
And really, if people want Punk to say the same thing on TWO shows every week, well.. I don't know about that. Especially since he seems to get
BURIED!! every time he's on RAW. The only thing it would help with the Society is getting more people to join it, and really, the Society
shouldn't be so big just yet.
And really, if I think an angle is well written, it's well written regardless of who's in it. If I didn't like Cena or DX (which I
don't) and didn't care about how the angles with them were written (which I do), then why the hell even watch the show? DX isn't going
to magically disappear. Taker isn't going to magically stop wrestling. It seems counter productive to complain that DX is in a main angle just
because the person doesn't like them. DX has been main eventing for a long time now, you'd think they would get the hint by now that
it's not going to change no matter how many posts they complain about it.
And that's what I mean about negativity.. fine, these people you refer to like very few people on RAW and don't care where the angles go
because they're not interested. SO WHY ARE THEY WATCHING?
quote:
Originally posted by DevilSoprano
But none of those 3 things make it seem like anything...oh wait, I can't say it was an okay show again otherwise Chris will get his douchepanties in a twist.
We watch because it's wrestling and we want it to get better. This has been asked and answered hundreds of times over the last few years.
It's wrestling and we're wrestling fans. And they always come through with glimmers of hope or bright spots.
Edge's run when he first turned into the Rated R Superstar. Orton's run last year when he was booting McMahons. Punk's current run as
your lord and savior. Cena when he doesn't feel the need to yell. HHH when he cuts just enough smart reference in his promos. The potential of
the future guys like Sheamus, McIntyre, Miz, MVP, etc.
We watch because it should get better and we want to be there when it does. It doesn't change the fact that we might think it's been good
recently.
ETA: Yup, that's me Chris. A total victim. Keep being a douche. It'll get you places. Maybe you'll be even cooler.
[Edited on 2-10-2010 by DevilSoprano]
Wrestling fans are funny that way. It gets more amusing to complain when WWE actually does something right as opposed to the more usual complaining
about all the things they do wrong.
No major comment on the show from me. Most of what I saw of it was OK to pretty-good, so I'll be kind and give it a 3.5. I could care less
about a post-stroke Bret Hart being a little clumsy or underpowered after a half-decade of not performing. Hell, it's not like he showed up drunk
like Vader did the last time they tried to recycle him, or the viewing the cosmic tragedy of watching a thoroughly ruined Scott Hall be used in a
major TNA angle. I'm just happy that he showed up period, and is being about the first person in a long-time to turn a Vince-centric storyline
into something interesting.
[Edited on 2-10-2010 by Paddlefoot]
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLopez
The problem here is that some just don't see it as a match that yielded any real results. Sheamus beat Christian clean. That's notable purely because Sheamus hasn't gotten a clean win over anyone half way legitimate since his arrival. But Christian himself doesn't have any more credibility than "midcard champion who has beat relative nobodies for the last year." So Sheamus gained little from it. Having midcarders beat midcarders is a tough way to get both over. It can happen, especially if they really perform excellently, but the most direct way to get a guy like Sheamus over on the main event level is to have him beat a main eventer. Thus far WWE has had him skirt by Orton and Cena in the same way Punk skirted by guys and since Sheamus never beat anyone to get the first title shot we're left with "Who has he beat?" The answer is now "Christian", which means what? Jack Swagger has also beaten Christian. I think Tommy Dreamer did. Mark Henry probably. Christian himself needs to gain credibility if he were to rise up the WWE ladder.
quote:
No, it means its up to WWE to MAKE me care but since I have no emotional investment in Dibiase and Rhodes and since they have no established character then they're starting from scratch. If Dibiase is making a face turn, then the basic truth is I don't care about him enough to be interested in that.
quote:
Originally posted by DevilSoprano
ETA: Yup, that's me Chris. A total victim.
quote:
I challenge you guys to find me one long term Big Belt holder who didn't have a normal haircut.
So I'm supposed to let it go and yet you can be the internet tough guy having to search for pictures of me. That makes sense.
Dude they're not hard to find, they're right there on the Megan's Law website
quote:
Originally posted by Paddlefoot
Totally awesome pic
quote:
Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
Sheamus's hair is red and spiky.. would you like him to dye it and get a buzz cut? I'm not sure what the definition of a 'normal' haircut is here, most of them have been bald like Austin, buzz cuts like Orton and Rock, shorter hair like Flair, stringy hair like HHH, Punhk, and HBK, or longer hair like Taker, Edge, and Hogan. Sheamus's hairstyle probably doesn't have much to do with his success as champ. "Oh God, I really would watch that guy get his ass kicked if HE'D JUST CHANGE HIS HAIR!"
quote:
Originally posted by Devineman
To be honest LL, I think that's over analysing it a bit. We're talking about former TNA Champ, current ECW Champ, former Tag Team Champ, guy who's being in tens of classics, and has been around for ever - guy. To be legitimate, he doesn't need to be beating Shaemus, he has earn't his legitimacy over the past decade. Just as if another perennial WWE upper midcarder came back, such as Jarrett, the fact that the crowd knows who he was 5 years ago does give a type of legitimacy.
Obviously, if he is getting pummeled by Hornswoggle every week, then he loses it, but being the ECW Champion does reinforce the fact somewhat that he is a 'big deal'. Just because we devalue Christian because of that belt, doesn't mean the majority of the WWE audience does, and surely that's who we are talking about here, as nobody can think that the WWE writes shows for us.
quote:
Yeah, but you have to meet them halfway somewhat. Becoming emotionally invested in the characters isn't as hard if you actually try to care. Unfortunately, the WWE no longer has the workers or writers to snap the cynic out of people, so the alternatives are to watch a show that you mostly dislike, or give a little leeway.
Reading Lucky's post, I just remembered my favourite part of Raw. It was when Christian said "We were both born without last names." Sometimes, Christian reminds me why I used to think he was so awesome five years ago.
See, that's what baffles me about the way they handle Christian in the WWE. The crowd always seems to love him. He's EXCELLENT on the mike. He's just fine in the ring. He's not the biggest guy in the world, but I'm guessing he's probably about the size of HBK. I've never really understood how Edge ascended so high while Christian lingers somewhere in the middle. I don't really see Christian as the Janetty of E&C;, or at least I don't see him lacking anything that would label him as such. Maybe Edge has more of an "edge" than Christian. I dunno.
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Is Good517
It's a credible win if the fans buy into Christian as a legit wrestler, and they do. He may not have the credibility of a Punk or Jericho, but
it's at least as good as beating a Kane or Morrison. So what if the WWE doesn't come out and say he's a former world champ? Some people
do know he is, he's over, he always has good matches, and he just has something credible to him even if the WWE refuses to acknowledge it.
It's a similar boat to what Edge was in before 2006. I even think beating R-Truth would beat a credible win for Sheamus. (btw, they haven't
mentioned the hardcore title since it was retired so that's a silly example =P) Yes, they should have had him beating midcarders like Christian
and Truth BEFORE December, but at least he might start doing it now.
[Edited on 2-10-2010 by Psycho Penguin]
quote:
Originally posted by DrBoz
See, that's what baffles me about the way they handle Christian in the WWE. The crowd always seems to love him. He's EXCELLENT on the mike. He's just fine in the ring. He's not the biggest guy in the world, but I'm guessing he's probably about the size of HBK. I've never really understood how Edge ascended so high while Christian lingers somewhere in the middle. I don't really see Christian as the Janetty of E&C;, or at least I don't see him lacking anything that would label him as such. Maybe Edge has more of an "edge" than Christian. I dunno.
quote:
Originally posted by DrBoz
See, that's what baffles me about the way they handle Christian in the WWE. The crowd always seems to love him. He's EXCELLENT on the mike. He's just fine in the ring. He's not the biggest guy in the world, but I'm guessing he's probably about the size of HBK. I've never really understood how Edge ascended so high while Christian lingers somewhere in the middle. I don't really see Christian as the Janetty of E&C;, or at least I don't see him lacking anything that would label him as such. Maybe Edge has more of an "edge" than Christian. I dunno.
It's called mailing it in. He's going through the motions. Putting on solid matches, cutting solid promos, but in no way, shape, or form going above and beyond to reach the levels he was at when he left WWE the first time and his entire TNA run.
quote:
Such is the cost of exchanging main-eventer status in TNA for a bigger and more reliable pay schedule in WWE. You have to do what the boss tells you even if it runs against the grain of what a significant amount of fans actually want to see happen. And it could be worse for him. He'll still be in US/IC/tag titles territory for the foreseeable future. And it's not like he got the Gail Kim treatment with zero promo time or being used as enhancement personnel for random Kelly Kelly or Eve Torres pushes.
I doubt it helps Christian's case that he's been tossed to the C Show to wrestle green and unover rookies and well past their prime
journeymen.
quote:
Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
It's a credible win if the fans buy into Christian as a legit wrestler, and they do. He may not have the credibility of a Punk or Jericho, but it's at least as good as beating a Kane or Morrison. So what if the WWE doesn't come out and say he's a former world champ? Some people do know he is, he's over, he always has good matches, and he just has something credible to him even if the WWE refuses to acknowledge it. It's a similar boat to what Edge was in before 2006. I even think beating R-Truth would beat a credible win for Sheamus. (btw, they haven't mentioned the hardcore title since it was retired so that's a silly example =P) Yes, they should have had him beating midcarders like Christian and Truth BEFORE December, but at least he might start doing it now.
quote:
Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
3. There is no reason to assume he'll not be main eventing when I can easily assume he will be judging by the fact he's pushed as a bigger deal than guys like Morrison (former ECW champ too!) and Swagger (also!)
Congrats on a lame argument.
quote:
Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
They haven't done anything with him yet
quote:
Personally I think ranking guys on a booking sheet is really hard and pretty arbitrary but I do question how you so confidently see Christian over Morrison when I'm pretty sure I'd put Morrison over Christian.
Because Morrison has competed with and beaten guys like Punk and Jericho, both former World Champs while Christian is slumming it with Zach Ryder and
Ezekial Jackson.
Morrison is clearly treated as superior to Christian in the WWE Universe.
Basically over the last 6 months or so the most I can remember Christian having done is beat Regal, Jackson, Kozlov, Ryder, Yoshi, Benjamin, or
whatever other low level and completely insignificant challengers came along, including guys like Swagger and Dreamer who have moved on to do such
illustrious things as lose to Santino and get released. And these defenses typically appear not on PPV but rather on the lowest of 4 rated WWE
programs and lower than Impact.
While in that time I can remember Morrison having a cross brand feud with Miz, picking up wins over guys like Rey Mysterio and CM Punk while competing
head-to-head with someone like Chris Jericho, get a World Title match vs Jeff Hardy, and make more PPV appearances. And while his recent W-L record
seems to pale in comparison to Punk's he's currently one of 5 challengers for the World Heavyweight title, which he became by beating
McIntyre for once. And of course this is all happening on a more important and more watched brand.
[Edited on 2-10-2010 by LuckyLopez]
[Edited on 2-10-2010 by LuckyLopez]
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLopez
Basically over the last 6 months or so the most I can remember Christian having done is beat Regal, Jackson, Kozlov, Ryder, Yoshi, Benjamin, or whatever other low level and completely insignificant challengers came along, including guys like Swagger and Dreamer who have moved on to do such illustrious things as lose to Santino and get released. And these defenses typically appear not on PPV but rather on the lowest of 4 rated WWE programs and lower than Impact.
While in that time I can remember Morrison having a cross brand feud with Miz, picking up wins over guys like Rey Mysterio and CM Punk while competing head-to-head with someone like Chris Jericho, get a World Title match vs Jeff Hardy, and make more PPV appearances. And while his recent W-L record seems to pale in comparison to Punk's he's currently one of 5 challengers for the World Heavyweight title, which he became by beating McIntyre for once. And of course this is all happening on a more important and more watched brand.
[Edited on 2-10-2010 by LuckyLopez]
[Edited on 2-10-2010 by LuckyLopez]
My apologies on the Kane/McIntyre confusion. My bad.
Feuding with Dolph Ziggler on Smackdown > feuding with Ezekiel Jackson on ECW. This seems simple enough to me. Its not like WORLDS above it but
Ziggler > Jackson and SD > ECW.
Christian's spent A YEAR feuding with these sorts of guys. Morrison has in that same time span feuded with Punk, Rey, Jericho, and Miz.
You're being ridiculous to compare a TNA run from over a year ago to stuff Morrison did in the last 6 months in WWE. TNA doesn't
exist. This is the WWE Universe where everything else is a pathetic and sad joke. Morrison wrestling Punk and Miz in the fall and winter of 2009
on Smackdown means more than Christian wrestling Samoa Joe and Kurt Angle in 2007 and 2008 in TNA. For so many reasons.
Morrison is, right now, today, a World Title contender. That's not a HUGE deal because so are R-Truth and Ted Dibiase, but its also well above
ANYTHING Christian has done in WWE for the last year.
If your entire argument amounts to "Christian has won more matches in the last month or two" then I guess we'll never see eye to eye. Because I
feel that the context matters and the fact that (a) less people saw those wins than saw Superstars, (b) those wins came against worthless superstars
with no standing in WWE, and (c) those wins came in the course of largely meaningless short feuds that rarely made it on PPV all mean Christian is
lower than Morrison. Or at least that Christian is no higher than Morrison.
But none of this really matters because the entire point was that Christian OR Morrison aren't the sort of people Sheamus needs to prove himself
against. He needs to beat MAIN EVENTERS. He can pin Christian, Morrison, and R-Truth on every show for the next 2 months and it still won't
change his standing if he fails to pin Orton or Cena every time he faces them.
Trust me, I don't think Morrison is on some kind of super push either. I think they're both pretty much the same thing. Directionless
midcarders not getting buried but certainly not building any tangible momentum either. Which is pretty much the same thing Sheamus is, only Sheamus
has THE World Title around his waist.
[Edited on 2-10-2010 by LuckyLopez]
I thought Raw was a solid outing this week. I enjoyed most of the matches, and the backstage skits and in-ring promos were a bit better than they
usually are. The NASCAR guy wasn't terrible, and the show deserves a solid 3.5 on my personal scale.
As far as the debate concerning Christian goes...Well, I have always been a big fan of him, so I'm admittedly biased. That said, I think
Christian has enough recognition and enough of a televised past in the WWE to be a bit teflon-like in who he loses to ans still be a legitmate
contender.
He isn't a main eventer who should be beating a Cena or HHH, but he's definitely in the same league as a John Morrison or Kofi Kingston.
And not even from his TNA success. Just from the fact that a lot of folks remember Edge and Christian (or at least own DVDs with them being in
matches), and Christian still gets some television time and mic time and PPV time.
He's basically on the cusp. And yeah, he's been there for awhile. But a couple good feuds and he's easily elevated up to a believable
challenger for a Cena or Orton. And if he loses to them, he's still going to get some different decent feud the next week with at least a known
wrestler. After all, there's nothing wrong or demeaning about having a program with a Regal or R-Truth.
Whether the WWE pulls the trigger on him at some point...? They might. At least for a few months. He's over enough (especially with a bit more
face time) to be a transitional champion during a couple of the more minor PPVs at least. And that's a good enough place for him to build from
after it happens. It's not like Edge or Punk or Orton immediately had 8 month runs when they broke out. Hell, Jericho was stuck with Stephanie
and a dog a month after beating what was then the two top wrestlers in the WWE.
But whatever, I'm just rambling at this point.
My entire point is that Christian has credibilty amongst the fans for being a veteran wrestler that's been around over a decade, and your entire
point is he's been unseen on a C-show (which is true, but they're taking him off that next week). Also, I don't agree that Ziggler >
Jackson. ZEKE IS BIG AND BLACK AND THEREFORE MORE IMPORTANT THAN ZIGGLER!! The entire feud with Ziggler was just because Mysterio got suspended (you
forgot to mention that's the reason Morrison won over him) and Morrison took Rey's place. Plus any feud where "Mr. Ziggles" is the focal
point wasn't a great feud. Sure, more people saw it, but do those people really see 'superstar' from a guy feuding with Ziggler for
months?
WWE would be wise to mention Christian's years of wrestling service and Morrison's wins over Punk and Jericho and then they'd BOTH be
very credible, but right now it's up to us fans who remember all that junk, and for us, I'd have to give the edge to Christian right now.
Oh, and Sheamus will be facing three main eventers (and two midcarders) in 2 weeks, so we don't need to worry about them having him beat guys
like Christian for the next 2 months because he'd pretty much HAVE to pin a main eventer in the Chamber to retain the title, because I doubt Kofi
or Dibiase will be in the final two. Let's hold off on worrying about him pinning main eventers until then and be pleased they finally gave him a
decent win, even if it was too late. Like I said, I was judging this RAW and liked that they did that on this RAW.
[Edited on 2-10-2010 by Psycho Penguin]
quote:
Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
My entire point is that Christian has credibilty amongst the fans for being a veteran wrestler that's been around over a decade, and your entire point is he's been unseen on a C-show (which is true, but they're taking him off that next week). Also, I don't agree that Ziggler > Jackson. ZEKE IS BIG AND BLACK AND THEREFORE MORE IMPORTANT THAN ZIGGLER!! The entire feud with Ziggler was just because Mysterio got suspended (you forgot to mention that's the reason Morrison won over him) and Morrison took Rey's place. Plus any feud where "Mr. Ziggles" is the focal point wasn't a great feud. Sure, more people saw it, but do those people really see 'superstar' from a guy feuding with Ziggler for months?
quote:
Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
1. They haven't done anything with him yet except give him a title belt for the last eight months or so.
quote:
2. No one has left a main event spot in TNA to go to WWE so this is not an indicator of anything one way or the other. You need to have actual data over the course of several years to come up with a hypothesis about that, not 'hey Christian might not be a main eventer in six months, this is how it is!'
quote:
3. There is no reason to assume he'll not be main eventing when I can easily assume he will be judging by the fact he's pushed as a bigger deal than guys like Morrison (former ECW champ too!) and Swagger (also!)
quote:
Congrats on a lame argument.
If Sting debuted in WWE ever, there's no chance they'd pretend they had no idea who he was or what he had done. Sting is the last big name to never work for WWE. The second he did debut, they'd make a big deal out of it for no other reason than he's been big elsewhere and now he was stepping into the WWE. WWE may do stupid things, but they're not stupid, and pretending that Sting had never done anything outside the WWE would never work.
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Is Good517 FWIW, word round the campfire is that WWE wanted to give Ziggler the IC belt long before Mysterio ever got suspended but for whatever reason Rey-Rey refused to do it.
quote:
Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
WWE would be wise to mention Christian's years of wrestling service and Morrison's wins over Punk and Jericho and then they'd BOTH be very credible, but right now it's up to us fans who remember all that junk, and for us, I'd have to give the edge to Christian right now.
quote:
Oh, and Sheamus will be facing three main eventers (and two midcarders) in 2 weeks, so we don't need to worry about them having him beat guys like Christian for the next 2 months because he'd pretty much HAVE to pin a main eventer in the Chamber to retain the title, because I doubt Kofi or Dibiase will be in the final two. Let's hold off on worrying about him pinning main eventers until then and be pleased they finally gave him a decent win, even if it was too late. Like I said, I was judging this RAW and liked that they did that on this RAW.
Fair enough, but I'll point out one more thing.
quote:
But now you're just contradicting yourself, I think. Earlier you told me it was unreasonable for me to judge Miz and Show's title win based on what I think it means for the near future. Now you're telling me that I should withhold judgment on Sheamus for 2 weeks until something else happens. Those seem like exactly contradictory viewpoints to me.
quote:
Originally posted by nOOb
If Sting debuted in WWE ever, there's no chance they'd pretend they had no idea who he was or what he had done. Sting is the last big name to never work for WWE. The second he did debut, they'd make a big deal out of it for no other reason than he's been big elsewhere and now he was stepping into the WWE. WWE may do stupid things, but they're not stupid, and pretending that Sting had never done anything outside the WWE would never work.
quote:
Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
They're not, because I am taking the opposing view on the second one and agree that they need to build Miz and Show up more on the first point. I was saying I liked Miz and Show on RAW and it's not fair to write them off because you THINK they might not be good down the line, along with not being fair on Sheamus because you THINK he won't ever beat a main eventer as champ. I am saying if you always think negatively, there's no reason to watch WWE. Not you specifically, but people in general. I like to think positive and like to see matches like Sheamus vs Christian on RAW.
quote:
Originally posted by Paddlefoot I still have the vivid memories of Goldberg being dropped down to filler material/clown act status opposite Goldust after his debut feud with The Rock ended.
Yeah, I also recall Goldberg usually looking pretty strong throughout his WWE run. He suffered from being there at the very height of Raw being All Triple H, All The Time but considering he was one of a very small few to actually get to usurp the belt from HHHis Majesty for a few days you almost have to consider him pretty successful. But I don't remember him really being completely worthless (well, as a character) until word got out that he was leaving, and even then he was thrown into a "dream match" against Brock instead of being jobbed out to Le Resistance.
After the debut vs. Rock, he beat Jericho and HHH on pay per view, lost the title in December three months after winning it, had a decent showing in the Rumble, helped Guerrero win the WWE title, and then lost to Brock Lesnar in his last match. Yeah he had that ONE SKIT with Goldust.. that's what I am talking about negativity with. Ignoring all the good things and pretending he did nothing in the WWE except comedy skits.
quote:
Originally posted by Psycho Penguin And then lost to Brock Lesnar in his last match.
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Is Good517 He suffered from being there at the very height of Raw being All Triple H, All The Time
quote:
Originally posted by the goon
quote:
Originally posted by Psycho Penguin And then lost to Brock Lesnar in his last match.
Goldberg actually won that match. I've always assumed the WWE must have been really pissed at Lesnar for leaving at the time.
quote:
Originally posted by Chris Is Good517 He suffered from being there at the very height of Raw being All Triple H, All The Time
That is my least favorite era of the WWE in the past ten years. Just wanted to throw that out there.
quote:
Originally posted by Psycho Penguin
Although there is a point to be made that WWE neutered his character and made him work longer matches, outside of that time he completely dismantled Rodney Mack's White Boy Challenge.
Ahhh... Remember when the E was trying to push Bubba Ray Dudley as a singles wrestler? Remember the mini-feud he had with HHH, and he was going
batshit insane backstage about how RAW wasn't supposed to be all about HHH, and wasn't "the Triple H show?" I remember thinking, "yes,
Bubba, it is. Unfortunately."
I would say "good times," but that would kinda defeat the purpose, no?
LL, I'd say the highlight of Christian's current WWE tenure was the awesome match he had with Swagger on TV, but that's just
opinion.
I agree that Sheamus needs bigger wins than Christian, but this is still his biggest win yet over an established superstar (and it doesn't hurt
that Christian is a guy who carries people to good matches). Yes, maybe Christian is low on the totem pole, but he's still a current
long-reigning champ and a former IC champ and a guy that almost every WWE fan of longer than 3 years knows is a credible competitor. It's not
like WWE acknowledges that the ECW title is worthless.
I'm surprised he's been so low on the totem pole, but that might be because he does that annoying clapping thing and is rocking that weird
"ripped old man" look that Angle had a while ago. Still, I've got to think he's at least an IC contender if he goes to SD.
I also really like the idea of ECW guys being free agents, especially if it means Christian shows up on all shows for a couple of weeks. I like the
idea of some of these guys showing up and trying to prove their worth and wouldn't mind seeing someone (maybe Ryder) keep trying to prove their
worth to Teddy Long but just coming up short.
I liked the show as it was better than usual but it was not great, so I'd give it a 3.5.
The one thing that really disappointed me (I can't say I'm disappointed in Dibiase looking like a bitch even if I think it's
shortsighted) was the HHH/HBK promo that basically took all the drama out of the tag match. It's bad enough that the booking made it seem like DX
didn't care about the titles, but it's another thing for HHH to just come out and say he could give a shit about the titles. That really
took the suspense out of the match.
I'm also confused about why people talk about Punk being pushed to the moon or something. Yes, he has a stable and lots of mic time but he loses
every single match and/or looks like a bitch. I'm fine with SES losing, but shouldn't Gallows take the pin? Why did everyone think
Punk's promo on SD was so great when he was basically pissing himself over facing Batista? Maybe it's just me hating that he's been
forced to be another chickenshit heel, but how does a guy have any credibility when he always loses and/or is always terrified of his opponent?
[Edited on 2-11-2010 by theflammablemanimal]
quote:
Originally posted by theflammablemanimal
LL, I'd say the highlight of Christian's current WWE tenure was the awesome match he had with Swagger on TV, but that's just opinion.
Apologies to all on the Goldberg error. It all happened too long ago and let's just say I never bothered to record any of this stuff back then. And even if I did I sure wouldn't be going through it again just to re-watch it now.
quote:
Originally posted by the goon
Scott Steiner, on the other hand, would be someone who came into the WWE strong and was then pretty quickly shuffled down to the midcard.
quote:
Originally posted by FistHiccups
Steiner was an absolute mess. He was nowhere near capable of a main-event feud at the time, Triple H was nowhere near capable of carrying him to one, and it should never have happened. I think Steiner was a case of WWE being too eager to push him and then getting their fingers burnt.
On my walk I just realized a point I forgot to mention - You guys named guys like Steiner, Booker, and Braden Walker. Fine. What do they all have in common? They all didn't start in WWE. Christian did and was pushed fairly decently for seven years. I say he has that on his side compared to those guys, if there is a conspiracy against them as you claim. Because Christian is as homegrown as Edge was. (It also doesn't make ANY sense why WWE does this - shows don't sign stars from other shows and bury them in the background, and free agents in sports get a chance to shine on their new team. Oh well.)
It makes sense from the perspective of an ego driven man who believes he's the best game in town and the only man capable of making true stars,
and thus he might get something out of showing that someone else's stars really aren't what they're billed as when they get to the "big
leagues." Maybe a deliberate game, maybe just a subconscious thing. Some day watch the Monday Night War DVD and ask yourself how WWE's people
can see themselves so clearly as the victims and good guys and WCW as the villains and the cheaters, and it comes down to basic human nature.
Sports teams don't deliberately misuse athletes because there's no gain from it since a good athlete can only help you. Then again
there's plenty of examples of sports franchises giving preference to long standing or home grown talent over free agents or trades, or players
finding themselves devalued on a new team because their new owners/coaches don't see the same value in them their last ones did.
It a pretty terrible comparison seeing as how a wrestler's value is pretty heavily placed in his booking where a baseball or basketball player
can prove his worth by performing if he's given any time to play, and if he isn't then there's a bunch of equal level teams willing to
give them a chance that doesn't often require dropping down a level professionally and giving up a lot of money and job security. Even then, you
don't know much about sports or human nature if you're saying there are never some petty or just foolish owners/coaches/GMs out there.
And the case with Christian isn't some kind of deliberate burial of a TNA guy. Its a matter of judgment. Christian had a solid career in WWE as
a tag team worker and midcarder. He had a main event run in TNA where he was seen as the MVP of the company. He's had a solid year in TNA as a
midcarder. So I (and I don't think anyone else) claimed he was being buried, in fact I said that he was doing relatively fine even if he's
pretty directionless and without momentum. But what I do believe is that WWE sees him as exactly what they saw him as 4 years ago. A midcarder. And
that 3 years main eventing in TNA did nothing to change that opinion because in WWE's opinion TNA is an irrelevant minor league where being a
champion or being over tells you little more than that they can succeed in a world that has nothing to do with you. Whether this is a deliberate
attempt to undermine the opposition, basic and petty human behavior, or just totally unrelated and purely coincidental evaluation of talent.
Austin wasn't WWE made.
Neither were millions of other: Hunter, well, the whole of DX really. Ron Simmons, Ric Flair, Jericho, Benoit, Eddie, Rey Mysterio, CM Punk, etc.
In fact, out of all of the top stars in the past 20 years, I can only think of Cena and Rocky who were WWE made and drew any money. Maybe Morrison in
a few years, I suppose Umaga was a pretty big draw at one point.
The WWE caters to it's audience, many of whom aren't big ROH, TNA or Indy fans. Hell, a lot of fans in the WWE (due to the nature of the
Monday Night Wars and the polarising effect it had) didn't know or care who DDP was, which is probably why he didn't get over despite a
monster Taker rub.
Christian's antics in TNA may as well been in Japan for all the WWE cares. To my money, this is a bit of a mistake. The Monday Night Wars
don't exist any more, and it's possible for both shows to be viewed by the same audience.
However, the WWE are just doing what they always do, and relying on the wrestlers to get themselves over working the WWE way.
I really, really, really don't care about those ROH guys who can chain wrestle all day long. I watch wrestling to be entertained, and to my
money, match psychology and promos are more important than a 900 degree spinning SSP.
quote:
Originally posted by Devineman
Austin wasn't WWE made.
Neither were millions of other: Hunter, well, the whole of DX really. Ron Simmons, Ric Flair, Jericho, Benoit, Eddie, Rey Mysterio, CM Punk, etc.
Well of course not, WWE is a far bigger product than ECW and WCW (at the end) were.
X-Pac had some noteworthyness in WCW. The Midnight Rockers were probably one of the biggest tag team in the business before moving to WWF, I seem to
recall them being AWA Champs. I agree on Hunter though, don't know where that came from.
Simmons was very well known before he went to WWE due to his NWA stuff with Teddy Long and another wrestler who's name escapes me (Atlas?).
Rey was definitely well known in WCW as were Benoit, Eddie and Jericho.
My point was that this myth that only WWE made guys get heavily pushed still pervades despite common logic.
Well, these guys tend to get pushed right out of the gate (like Jericho and the Radicalz) but then settle into the midcard.
I think most people are reacting to the fact that Benoit came in as a (technically) a former WCW champ, Booker was a 5-time WCW champion, and
Jericho/Eddie were pretty big WCW stars, yet it took those guys years to even sniff a title and their title reigns were mostly disasters.
(And I have a hard time counting anything below ECW, TNA, WCW, as having a very successful career. I know it was different back when HBK came to WWE,
but that still doesn't make him a well-known pre-WWE success. Same with Punk and all his indy cred, even though I love his ROH work)
I would count the NWA guys as pretty well known outside of WWE/WCW/ECW.
Even so, if guys did come in as top guys, then settled at midcard level, it is usually because the WWE crowd didn't buy into them, more than the
WWE purposely making sure that they were lower ranked. They might be assholes in the WWE, but they are a business first.
One thing that stuck out at me: what huge Taker rub did DDP get? Did I miss something? Didn't DDP get jobbed the fuck out to Taker at every turn, like even his sneak attacks ending in him getting beat down? Didn't he get pinned by Taker's wife? Seriously, my memories a bit fuzzy, so maybe I missed it something, but that just seemed like an interesting choice of words.
quote:
Originally posted by Devineman
Austin wasn't WWE made.
Neither were millions of other: Hunter, well, the whole of DX really. Ron Simmons, Ric Flair, Jericho, Benoit, Eddie, Rey Mysterio, CM Punk, etc.
I agree with the point that Lucky has made, but think it can be made much more concisely (and through a rhetorical question, no less): Was the Undertaker "WWE Made", or was Mark Callous established before that persona?
quote:
Originally posted by Devineman
Austin wasn't WWE made.
Neither were millions of other: Hunter, well, the whole of DX really. Ron Simmons, Ric Flair, Jericho, Benoit, Eddie, Rey Mysterio, CM Punk, etc.
In fact, out of all of the top stars in the past 20 years, I can only think of Cena and Rocky who were WWE made and drew any money. Maybe Morrison in a few years, I suppose Umaga was a pretty big draw at one point.
The WWE caters to it's audience, many of whom aren't big ROH, TNA or Indy fans. Hell, a lot of fans in the WWE (due to the nature of the Monday Night Wars and the polarising effect it had) didn't know or care who DDP was, which is probably why he didn't get over despite a monster Taker rub.
Christian's antics in TNA may as well been in Japan for all the WWE cares. To my money, this is a bit of a mistake. The Monday Night Wars don't exist any more, and it's possible for both shows to be viewed by the same audience.
However, the WWE are just doing what they always do, and relying on the wrestlers to get themselves over working the WWE way.
I really, really, really don't care about those ROH guys who can chain wrestle all day long. I watch wrestling to be entertained, and to my money, match psychology and promos are more important than a 900 degree spinning SSP.
quote:
Originally posted by Devineman
Hell, a lot of fans in the WWE (due to the nature of the Monday Night Wars and the polarising effect it had) didn't know or care who DDP was, which is probably why he didn't get over despite a monster Taker rub.
No, he had a special kind of burial. He was pinned by Taker's wife.
I miss BikerTaker.
Really, whatever anyone thinks about the overall theory DDP got TERRIBLE booking in WWF and Vince destroyed him. One of the biggest successes WCW had
and the guy who could pop a crowd with one move. And they made him a creepy stalker who was pinned by a wrestler's wife and then became a
motivational speaker. Its just crazy to think that one of the biggest stars of the company that drew some of the highest ratings in wrestling history
wasn't over with WWE's audience in 2001.
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLopez
Really, whatever anyone thinks about the overall theory DDP got TERRIBLE booking in WWF and Vince destroyed him.
quote:
Originally posted by punkerhardcore Woah woah woah, what? Excuse me, but I think you're forgetting how he had a run as EUROPEAN Champion.