Moved by OORick on May 7, because this is a really long and in-depth thread, and moving it here will save us the trouble of re-typing all the stuff we already said over the course of the past week in the regular SD thread.

quote:

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*World champion Christian comes out and talks about winning the title at Extreme Rules. Mark Henry and Great Khali come out and demand title shots. Randy Orton then comes out and says he wants a shot too. Teddy Long comes out and says that he will let the fans decide and the fans pick Orton. Long announces Christian vs. Orton for the title tonight.

*Backstage, Khali and Ranjin Singh run into Jinder Mahal, who says that it was interesting Singh let Khali dress up in a tutu on Raw.

*Sheamus defeated Daniel Bryan in a good match.

*Backstage, the Divas approach Layla and thank her for getting rid of Michelle McCool but tell her that they haven't forgotten how she treated them. Layla says Lay-Cool is officially over and everyone is going to see a new side of her.

*Cody Rhodes comes out and discusses his match at the Extreme Rules PPV. He has bags handed out to make the crowd wear them on his head.

*Ezekiel Jackson defeated The Big Show.

*Layla defeated Alicia Fox. Kharma comes out. Layla backs away. Fox kicks her. She tries to kick Kharma again but instead eats a clothesline. Kharma nailed her with the Implant Buster. The crowd chants for another. She teases it but leaves.

*The Corre attacked Ezekiel Jackson and laid him out backstage, saying that he couldn't just leave them.

*Sin Cara defeated Tyson Kidd. Chavo Guerrero was on commentary. Chavo shakes Cara's hand after the match.

*Backstage, Todd Grisham interviews Teddy Long and asked him if he thought it was unfair Christian has to defend the World title so soon. Long said it's not about being fair, it's about giving the fans what they want. Long said that Raw had a WWE title bout the day after Extreme Rules and he's going to make Smackdown just as exciting and unpredictable.

*Randy Orton pinned Christian to win the World title. Orton celebrated and left. Christian sat in the ring dejected as the fans chanted for him. After he went to the back, Orton returned to remind everyone that when they go home, remember he is the new World champion.

---

Fuck you WWE.

[Edited on 5-4-2011 by C.MontgomeryPunk]

And here I thought the TNA spoilers with Chyna's return were just about the lamest thing I had read in a long time.

also



[Edited on 5-4-2011 by williamssl]

FuckFuckFuckFuckFuckFucFFuckuckkFuck

Anybody up for Orton v. Henry?!?

Here's the good news for Christian: if his career path follows Kane's, he'll get a decent run with the title in 2023.

I normally never read spoilers, but I was just on Wrestlezone and saw the headline "Huge title change at Smackdown tapings" and couldn't help but click on it, just because I knew it meant Christian was fucked. The good news? At least he didn't drop the belt to Mark Henry.

But seriously, I don't fucking get this at all. Outside of just being part of the Eternal Push Of Randy Orton, I'm wondering if this was done as some sort of "thank you" to Orton for moving over to Smackdown. Or maybe the WWE got cold feet about having Christian as world champion. I have no idea.

Either way, it fucking sucks.

It might not be all bad. Christian was sort of bumped up to that level with Edge retiring. It seems that Orton sort of turned heel with the victory, so maybe Christian can now get an organic build to the title rather than being hot-shotted to it. Or maybe I'm being way too optimistic here.

If I were Alberto Del Rio, though, I'd be pretty pissed off right now.

On the one hand, the WWE planned on Edge winning at Mania and being SmackDown's top face. They never had the intention of giving Christian the title. At the same time, Orton has had a show built around him and is an "established" star so making it look like Christian was caught in an odd place makes it an easy way to get Orton as a legitimate replacement for Christian.

On the other hand...

FUCK THAT.

Christian was ready for a main event push PRIOR to joining TNA. He's over now. The Eddie push Rey got could have easily been put on Christian who has the ring and mic skills to carry a post-Mania run with the belt why the WWE sets things up for SummerSlam. There was no reason to panic. There was no reason Orton could not have been the top face on SmackDown, while Christian was built up to either build to Orton vs Christian...or the better option, have a heel beat Christian and then lose to Orton as SummerSlam.

Seriously, instead of having TWO faces who could carry a show (ala Austin and Foley, or Rock and Foley) the WWE deputed Christian or are forcing an over face to turn for no good reason. Either is just dumb.

This doesn't surprise me and it's why I didn't get too excited when Christian won the title.

The only way I will find this acceptable is if Christian takes a level in badass and ends up absolutely destroying Orton in a big time match.

Not asking for it to be a permanent thing, just that this ends up showing us once and for all that Christian can get the job done no matter the challenge.

In all fairness, I really don't have an issue with him dropping it to Orton. It is the dropping with no build that looks bad. Almost everybody gets a couple of weeks of TV and a PPV loss with the belt. Losing it in his first SD makes him look like a fluke.

Or it makes the loss look like a fluke. Christian was worn out after ER and Orton took advantage. He's never not done heelish things, the crowd just started cheering him for them.

Hopefully Christian calls in his rematch at the PPV, Orton heels it up, and Punk causes him to lose- turning Punk face in the process and "proving his point" all along.

Or Christian gets squashed, and with Edge gone, leaves for TNA again.

I wonder if Christian knew this was the plan on Sunday. I wonder if the writers knew either.

I don't even need to mention that this sucks (though I will anyway) but either way, I see a definite heel turn coming from one or the other of them. You just can't have them both as faces on approximately the same level. It's just a matter of which one they'll turn since both are pretty massively over at the moment.

SD! doesn't have any high level heels either, I could see Orton stay face, Christian heels, but will join the pack with Rhodes, Sheamus, Barrett, Henry. Dan Bryan, Sin Cara and Kane will be the top undercard faces.

Christian vs Orton, Bryan vs Rhodes, Sheamus vs Kane, Barrett vs Sin Cara could all work as feuds at the moment.

I'll be perfectly honest: I expected Christian to lose the title Friday...but I expected it to be against the Undertaker when he decided he wanted to come back for another one of his temporary go's.

Fuck Vince. Fuck Stephanie. Fuck Orton. Fuck anyone involved with this bullshit. And fuck the WEE.

I will go to the papers will this!

quote:

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Originally posted by Gobshite
I wonder if Christian knew this was the plan on Sunday. I wonder if the writers knew either.

---

Orton as the dickhead heel works better, and hopefully that's where they go. Christian comes out next week seeking his rematch, Orton says that after ER and last week, he's beat up, so no (crowd boos). he can even diss the crowd to make sure. Long makes the match for OTL instead. Orton attacks. Heel turn.

Or if Edge is still hanging around... Turn Edge & Christian heel. I wouldn't care that edge wasn't wrestling.

Either way, I'm guessing Orton V Chtistian is gonna headline smackdown until at lease summer slam.

I should have seen this coming. I just didn't expect it this quickly. I hate this move and I refuse to try to make sense of it.

Whatever happens, they did a great job of forever tainting the moment of Edge and Christian in the ring together at Extreme Rules 2011 after Christian's huge title win. Now we'll all be thinking "Yep, he lost it two nights later to Randy Orton."

Come to think of it, Orton beat Benoit for the title after Benoit's long-awaited (and similarly spectacular) win at Wrestlemania XX!

I'm sensing a pattern here..

So you're saying Christian is going to roid up and kill his family and then himself?

quote:

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Originally posted by williamssl
So you're saying Christian is going to roid up and kill his family and then himself?

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Take this for what it's worth, but something I just read on Wrestlezone:

As many of you may now know, the top story on the internet today is the fact that Randy Orton defeated Christian at the Smackdown taping last night to become the new World Heavyweight Champion. After speaking to several key WWE insiders, WrestleZone can now provide details behind why WWE decided to book this major title change just days after Christian won the title at Extreme Rules.

To begin with, as we exclusively reported several days ago, Randy Orton is set to become the focal point of the Smackdown brand, and the entire Friday night show will be centered around him from both a marketing and creative standpoint. Orton's position on Smackdown can be compared to John Cena's position on Raw, as WWE looks at both talents as the creative centers of their respective brands.

Additionally, we were told that Christian's title win at Extreme Rules was done not so much as a "well deserved win for Christian," but much more so that a big moment could be made for Edge at the PPV. "Vince [McMahon] could smell, touch and taste a moment between Edge and Christian celebrating on PPV, and that's the major reason why Christian was awarded the title." This dispels any conspiracy theories that Christian was awarded the title to keep it on Smackdown, as we were told it would have been very easy for WWE to throw a third party into the Extreme Rules match which would have kept the title off Christian and still on Smackdown.

As to the question of why WWE stripped Christian of the title so shortly after his win at Extreme Rules, WZ was told that no one in WWE with any kind of influence values Christian as a top money draw for the company. Christian is well liked, and is considered, as we were told, "a reliable hand," but when it comes to being a top player in WWE, Vince McMahon has absolutely no faith in him.

Brian Gewirtz, who is the head writer on Raw, and also oversees the entire writing staff in general, which means he does have influence on the direction of Smackdown, is said to be a big supporter of Christian, but other than him, there appears to be no other members of WWE's top brass that consider Christian to be a major player. And yet, we're told by our key WWE insider that even Gewirtz wouldn't speak up for Christian as a top draw. "Brian knows Christian is a very entertaining wrestler," we were told, "but even he knows Christian should not be the number one guy on either brand."

As we said, however, Christian is still considered to be a quality worker and a reliable hand for WWE, and we were even told that a possible producer/agent position might be available for him when his wrestling days are over, but as far as Christian ever working at the top of a WWE brand, that seems to be a very unlikely possibility.

So Christian had a really special, feel good moment that seemed to unite everyone winning his first title then three days later he loses it to Randy Orton in a match that had no build, had no logical reasoning.... other than the fans cheered loudest for Randy Orton.

That's the part that hurts.

Had Orton RKO'd Christian at the end of last week like I mentioned in the thread I could maybe have just understood it and the two men would have had a solid base to work on.

But how can you tell a compelling story from a match that only came about due to an impromptu "vote" from the live crowd?

I'm sick and tired of the WWE having seemingly lost the ability to tell a good story anymore. Challengers no longer emerge anymore, they are plucked out of battle royals or one night tournaments or even worse just a singles match with no back story or build either. So you're building a story from a previous story that had no build or back story either.

Rick keeps mention compelling episodic TV and there's little compelling or episodic at the minute.

If they knew they wanted to get the title on Orton to begin with they should have held off on crowning a champion until after Extreme Rules. Then you could run a story where a tournament is held over three weeks so there's actual time and stories to run with where Christian advances to the final and has the belief that now is his time but he is up against numerous World Champ Randy Orton and the doubts set in. Have an appearance from Edge to send him into the PPV full of confidence and you'd actually have a pretty enthralling PPV match with Randy Orton who is super over against Christian who has a good majority willing him onto his first title. Christian can come up short after he kicks Orton everything and Orton uncharacteristically acknowledges this by offering him his hand but Christian pushes him away and you're left wondering how Christian reacts to this defeat.

But no we'll be just left with a rematch of a match made only because the fans cheered loudest for one of the wrestlers.

Good work WWE

Apparently Alicia got a seperated shoulder in her beatdown by Kong. No word yet on whether it was from Alicia botching something or if Kong went too stiff on her.

I feel bad for Christian. I'd like to think it's because they see more value for SD in Orton feuding with an angry and dangerous Jericho (whenever he may be returning), but it's still a slap to the face for Christian. It's hard to beleive though that he'd be totally surprised by WWE doing this to him. They never saw much value in him other than a partner for Edge and then Jericho before he left for TNA so there'd be no reason for him to think that much of anything had changed when he came back. Eight years (or whatever) later since he first showed up and it ought to be clear to everyone by now that the non-stop push for Orton really is a permanent fixture for WEE. And the relative illogic of the stories they build around him probably isn't going to come to an end either.

According to Meltzer (whatever good his word is worth these days) WWE is "shocked" at backlash to the title change.

Yea I know it's hard for the WWE to understand, but "fans" actually do care about how wrestlers not named John Cena or Randy Orton are treated...

quote:

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Originally posted by Fandom
Yea I know it's hard for the WWE to understand, but "fans" actually do care about how every other wrestler not named John Cena or Randy Orton are treated...

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They're World Entertaininglyment Entertainment, dammit! They'll tell YOU what to like and by God you'll LIKE it!

Seems this caused the guys at GeekWeek and Jeff Katz to start planning something wrestling wise.

quote:

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Originally posted by SeanSmythe
According to Meltzer (whatever good his word is worth these days) WWE is "shocked" at backlash to the title change.

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quote:

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@RandyOrton Biggest change from Raw to Smackdown...Ignorance x Jealousy + Spoilers = entertaining tweets!! Keep em coming!!

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Yeah, good call Randy. We're all just ignorant and jealous. You aren't completely boring, and Christian isn't a talented guy who just got royally fucked. It's just the haters being haters.

Randy needs to turn off the computer for a while and get some good unconscious sleep. It'll do wonders for his density.

Stolen from another board.

quote:

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"You mean...we can have Orton and Cena champs....at the same time?"

I didn't know we could use the 'draft' this way. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHHAHAH

-- Vince McMahon. April 2011.

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So they're bright enough to recognize that Christian winning the title on a PPV would result in buys from fans hoping to see a feel good story conclude.....but then not bright enough to think that the same people might possibly be upset that the same person toward whom they felt good about winning would have to job out the title in his very next match?

And these people are allowed to run a business? That makes money?

Seriously. It doesn't even matter that it's Orton. (Though that doesn't help.) How stupid can you be to not even let the guy carry the strap to the next Pay Per View?

There's always the possibility that we're being played, I suppose but if you want to play people do it in a way that makes them tune in, not tune out.

quote:

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Originally posted by cromartie
So they're bright enough to recognize that Christian winning the title on a PPV would result in buys from fans hoping to see a feel good story conclude.....but then not bright enough to think that the same people might possibly be upset that the same person toward whom they felt good about winning would have to job out the title in his very next match?

And these people are allowed to run a business? That makes money?

Seriously. It doesn't even matter that it's Orton. (Though that doesn't help.) How stupid can you be to not even let the guy carry the strap to the next Pay Per View?

There's always the possibility that we're being played, I suppose but if you want to play people do it in a way that makes them tune in, not tune out.

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Be interesting to see what fan reaction is on Friday and immediately thereafter when this goes down...and whether it more than counters the negative reaction from the internet community who reads the spoilers ....or not.

Dammit. Well that just ruined my Cinco de Mayo.

quote:

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Originally posted by gobbledygooker

quote:

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Originally posted by williamssl
So you're saying Christian is going to roid up and kill his family and then himself?

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I'm just saying if Christian starts looking like Chris Masters within the next month, they need to put his family in witness protection.

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Reading spoilers this week make me remember why I don't watch this dreck. They couldn't have kept the belt on him for three weeks to see how it went?

I am getting kind of pissy sitting here thinking about all this, so before a long rant,

Fuck off, Vinnie Mac and Dixie. That is all.

They're shocked at the backlash, despite having ample evidence that no one wants Orton as champ. Sure he pops the crowd at the arena but he's like kryptonite to those precious viewers they want to get back. Everytime he gets the belt their ratings nosedive or go down quite blatantly at least... and they're shocked that there's a backlash regarding this move?

Vince, go check yourself into a nursing home already and make sure it's a fancy one for millionaires where they'll let you fuck yourself... because that's what you need to go and do at this point. Honestly, you have lost the ability to create new talent, recognize when fans have latched onto someone despite your best efforts to give them no reason to and have no concept of reality anymore. Maybe there's a room for you in Jeff Hardy's volcano, you senile old fuck.

Maybe I'm giving the creative team too much credit after this big fuck up, but does anyone else think there's a chance the WWE might spin all of this backlash buzz into a storyline (kind of like Matt/Edge/Lita or Daniel Bryan)? Like maybe they were planning on pushing Christian back down to the midcard, but now they're thinking "Shit, there's a lot of buzz about this...let's work it into an angle!"

I don't know, like I say, maybe I'm giving the WWE too much credit. But it just seems like the story would write itself, with Christian saying the fans demand he gets another title shot, with Orton turning heel and ducking Christian every chance he gets.

Maybe you're giving them too much credit? MAYBE? Really?

quote:

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Originally posted by DevilSoprano
Maybe you're giving them too much credit? MAYBE? Really?

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Just more evidence that Christian is not a longterm "main event" guy in Vince's eyes... those catarac infested dustballs he calls eyes.

quote:

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Originally posted by the goon

quote:

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Originally posted by DevilSoprano
Maybe you're giving them too much credit? MAYBE? Really?

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That's right, sorry.

FUCK WWE. -0.0 WORST SHOW EVER.

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This actually made me angry enough that I had to leave something on their Feedback page (https://secure.wwe.com/forms/help/show.php). I doubt it will change anything -- hell, I doubt anyone will even read it -- but if they're actually talking about being "shocked" by the backlash, maybe enough people complaining would convince them to go a different way with this.

I mean, let's face it, Edge is great (one of my favorites of all-time) but I don't know if he would have gotten as far as he did if it weren't for the way the Matt Hardy/Lita thing shook out and made him a huge heel. Vince is an idiot sometimes, but if the fans are vocal enough and loud enough for long enough, sometimes his desire for money and success outweighs his arrogance.

Sometimes.

Well, rarely. But it's happened.

Here's what I said:

quote:

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What on EARTH were you guys thinking when you made Christian drop the World Heavyweight Championship to Randy Orton? Christian is incredibly talented, great on the mic, and most importantly, ENTERTAINING. I actually set my DVR to record SmackDown again just because I wanted to make sure that I wouldn't miss an episode of his championship reign.

I have since removed SmackDown from my DVR schedule; I don't want to watch any show where Randy Orton is considered to be the "focus of the brand." I don't hate seeing him because he's a heel or a "bad guy;" I hate seeing him because he's demonstrated himself to be an idiot.

Honestly, I don't know which is worse: that you think Christian can't be the face of SmackDown, or that you think Randy Orton can. Seriously, Randy Orton is illiterate and couldn't talk his way out of a paper bag. I'd rather watch TNA than watch a show where Orton is champion (and believe me, I am not in a hurry to watch TNA).

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Goon, WWE does suck and this is a prime example of it. TNA sucks too. So, get your WWE sk8er boi glasses off, and actually look at the product. What in the blue fuck gives you any hope that Orton won't be champ for a long time or at worst be the focus of Smackdown. They couldn't even give Christian a WEEK as champ and you think MAYBE WWE creative has an idea. Blinders man, seriously.

But he's not suggesting that WWE had some master plan all along. He's suggesting that maybe WWE steps back and looks at the bigger picture and says "Oh, well, maybe this isn't what the fans wanted so let's re-evaluate and change the game plan so we can deliver something a little closer to what might satisfy the fans without compromising our overall goals". Which I think comes out to Christian getting a long-term program with Orton for the title and maybe even an upset win where he actually carries the title for a full PPV cycle before Orton ultimately wins the feud and takes the title onto the next guy.

Look, man, someone else brought up the Matt/Edge/Lita thing and when the fans were chanting "we want Matt", what the fans meant was "we want Matt to come back and kick the dogshit out of Edge" (2005, such a different time), but what they got was Matt getting rehired and turned into Edge's bitch. So WWE has shown at least a lukewarm willingness to compromise and give us what they want, but they're going to do it their way. So if the fans scream for it loud enough, Christian very well could get another opportunity to try to run with the ball, and if he does it's up to him to make them think he's worth it- not an easy task since they'll clearly call any audible with the intent of cutting his legs out from under him.

quote:

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Originally posted by DevilSoprano
Goon, WWE does suck and this is a prime example of it. TNA sucks too. So, get your WWE sk8er boi glasses off, and actually look at the product.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the goon
But seriously, I don't fucking get this at all. Outside of just being part of the Eternal Push Of Randy Orton, I'm wondering if this was done as some sort of "thank you" to Orton for moving over to Smackdown. Or maybe the WWE got cold feet about having Christian as world champion. I have no idea.

Either way, it fucking sucks.

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quote:

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Originally posted by DevilSoprano They couldn't even give Christian a WEEK as champ and you think MAYBE WWE creative has an idea. Blinders man, seriously.

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If internet backlash meant anything to WWE do you think Daniel Bryan would be involved in a storyline revolving around Gail Kim and The Bellas? Do you think Rey Mysterio would win almost every major feud he's been in for the past few years? Would CM Punk have been absolutely buried by Randy Orton and John Cena and Undertaker and whoever else the past year? Would guys that the internet has embraced/come around on like Drew McIntyre, Dolph Ziggler, Cody Rhodes, Sheamus, and quite a few others be basically glorified JTTS? The WWE has never and will never care about internet backlash...except in the fact that this may actually wind up hurting Christian when he loses to Randy Orton in 45 seconds in his rematch.

quote:

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Originally posted by DevilSoprano
Would guys that the internet has embraced/come around on like Drew McIntyre, Dolph Ziggler, Cody Rhodes, Sheamus, and quite a few others be basically glorified JTTS?

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In response to Dev, I'd just say this is a different case than the usual "Internet darlings" like Punk and Bryan not being pushed. I don't think anyone is really sending pissed off messages to WWE.com or over Twitter because CM Punk is jobbing. There just seems to be a buzz about this that you don't see too often (the last time that I think would be comparable would be Daniel Bryan's firing and at the very least he was brought back in the main event of the WWE's second-biggest PPV of the year and then got a lengthy US title run, and he's not even on the level that Christian is). When Joey Styles and Orton himself are acknowledging the backlash on Twitter, you know there's a little more buzz than normal.

And again, it just goes back to me wondering if the WWE might be influenced by that in regards to what happens on TV. They may just horribly fuck things up even more next week at the Smackdown tapings, but until then I'm just wondering.

This spoilers thread will probably get more replies and views than the actual Smackdown thread

quote:

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Originally posted by joerizal
This spoilers thread will probably get more replies and views than the actual Smackdown thread

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Originally posted by Chris Is Good517

quote:

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Anyway, you're probably right that WWE won't pay much heed to internet backlash, but you know what they WILL listen to? The people in the arena who have the power to chant "We want Christian" and "boring" to Orton. Those are the people who have to do their parts.

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quote:

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Originally posted by gobbledygooker
I don't know man, did you HEAR the MASSIVE cheers Orton was getting in his first appearance on Smackdown, like he was some kind of conquering hero? He could barely even start with his promo without the fans erupting. I think any "boring" chants would be drowned out by the other 95% of the crowd that are cheering their asses off for him, sadly.

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quote:

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Originally posted by gobbledygooker
Originally posted by Chris Is Good517

I don't know man, did you HEAR the MASSIVE cheers Orton was getting in his first appearance on Smackdown, like he was some kind of conquering hero? He could barely even start with his promo without the fans erupting. I think any "boring" chants would be drowned out by the other 95% of the crowd that are cheering their asses off for him, sadly.

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quote:

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Originally posted by breakydafunk

I've wondered this for a while, where the hell did all this Orton love come from from the fans. I noticed it months ago and it baffled me, it's not like he's got bundles of natural charisma or is exciting to watch in the ring by BY GOD does he get some cheers.

Absolutely baffled.

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Totally 100% agree with you there Noob. You made a lot of good points that I'm sure we all knew (at least deep down) but not many of us have wanted to admit to ourselves.

To add to other parts of the conversation- I'm also left in a state of confusion and wonder as to why Orton is as popular as he is. I can't stand the guy, and have hated his character from day 1 (and I'm not a big fan of the man himself, from things I've read).

I've boiled the fans love of Orton down to one main thing- the RKO.

Seriously... that's it. It's a great finisher, it can be hit out of nowhere and in a bunch of different ways. Who didn't markout for the Diamond Cutter back in the day? That move alone practically turned DDP to a face (although DDP actually had charisma to back it up and he could form full sentences). Orton should be eternally grateful every single moment that DDP gave his blessing for Orton to use the move as his finisher. B/c I could almost guarantee you he'd be NOTHING without it.

Orton has nothing else that make him truly stand out. Is he a decent looking dude? I guess he's "man-pretty" and will get many women in the audience excited, but there are others that I guess would qualify in the same way.

He can sell well and from what I hear the other Superstars like working with him because he "works soft" and isn't as apt to injure anyone else. But once again, these are traits I know other Superstars have, so I just don't get all the love, except for the RKO.

Go ahead, imagine Orton with another finisher. (Like that god-awful one he originally had- the one that almost every other new wrestler uses- MVP wound up using it for awhile (i forget if it was called the Playmaker or Play of the Day- it was move where you grab the opponents arm, put your leg over their head and swing forward. Really lame looking.) Yeah, that'd get people to pop...

And even if he picked something else- go ahead, can you HONESTLY tell me that fans would give a crap about Orton if he didn't have the RKO in his arsenal as his finisher? I'd wager to say definitely not.

It's COOL to see people get Diamond Cutter'd. It's easy to do (hey kids- even though you're not supposed to, you can try it at home, bc it doesn't hurt too bad!) and this passed onto Orton. Especially when he was hitting it on guys flying at him in all sorts of ways. As much as I dislike Orton, I'll admit the visual of him hitting the RKO on Evan Bourne out of the SSP is pretty sweet. But I wouldn't base an entire show around a guy bc they only pop for the one MOMENT (or the expectation of that moment).

But that's just me. This is a business and Orton makes them money. It sucks but that's how it rolls (I just believe Christian could ALSO make them money. I still wear my Captain Charisma shirt- and I've had that thing for like 5-6 years). I think he could move merchandise and get people into the show (as evidenced by all the passion on this forum for the guy. Just unfortunate that Vince can't realize it.

So yeah that's my take on Orton- agree? Disagree?

So Orton and Cena are the two WWE champions? Hell. Someone call me some time in 2012 when one of them loses and makes things fun again.

quote:

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Originally posted by nOOb

I think it's getting to be about time that we start to see something: the WWE fans are retarded by our standards. That's all there is to it. The WWE fan is the 10 year old who thinks that this shit is actually real. It's the out-of-touch, socially awkward 20-something that is so far removed from the internet and the rumor mill and all that that thinks these guys doing what they're doing is inspiring and is truly surprised by the things they do (and might also think this is real). And it's the hillbillies who know this is fake but rank this up there with monster trucks, NASCAR, and the rodeo as the most awesome form of entertainment around (and also think it is funny as shit to let their kids think this is real and tape their reactions to it to put on YouTube).

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To WWE's credit, it markets its merchandising equally towards us and kids. Because they know we're suckers for nostalgia and kids love anything action-packed. Between their DVD's, their video games featuring legends, their online video library, and their occasionally catchy T-Shirt (the Miz shirt in particular that I've seen way too many of), it's not like WWE is a particularly horribly run business. They make stupid wrestling decisions, yes, and if Vince McMahon was in charge of any other type of business, he would have gone bankrupt decades ago, but they know how to run this business and do it particularly well.

I mean, hey: we're still kinda watching, right?

quote:

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Originally posted by nOOb
I mean, hey: we're still kinda watching, right?

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quote:

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Originally posted by the goon
I normally never read spoilers, but I was just on Wrestlezone and saw the headline "Huge title change at Smackdown tapings" and couldn't help but click on it, just because I knew it meant Christian was fucked.

Either way, it fucking sucks.

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I gotta say I think I watched a different show than you guys. The show I saw wasn't about Orton winning the title. It was about Christian losing it. Which is a story that could lead to a second title win that is every bit as dramatic as the first.

Christian has main evented a number of smackdown's since he came back and has been booked super strong. Hell, he just had a competitive match against WWE's #2 babyface that he lost on an awesome looking fluke rko. And when the show closed, it closed on a dejected Christian leaving the arena, not a jubilant Orton holding the title high. I think we just saw the birth of Christian as a wrestler that gets consistently booked in high profile angles (like CM Punk). And even if he doesn't win the title again, I still see him having awesome matches with everyone near the top of the card.

quote:

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Originally posted by nilesanderson
I gotta say I think I watched a different show than you guys. The show I saw wasn't about Orton winning the title. It was about Christian losing it. Which is a story that could lead to a second title win that is every bit as dramatic as the first.

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I actually do have faith that the WWE can tell such a story. Mainly because I have seen them do so on several occasions. See:

A) Chris Benoit losing to Kurt Angle at Royal Rumble 03 only to win the title at Wrestlemania XX a year later
B) Daniel Bryan getting fired last year only to return at the main event of Summer Slam as an instrumental part of winning a 7 on 7 tag match and then going on to win the US title.
C) The entire Jeff Hardy vs CM Punk storyline in 2009 which ended up headlining 2 or 3 PPVs including Summer Slam
D) Eddie Guerrerro losing the US title to Big Show (to much smarky outrage and indgination) only to go on to win the big one from Brock Lesnar a few months later
E) Christian returning from injury and getting a push no one expected which included 3 wins over the royal rumble winner this year and then winning the title months sooner than he was probably going to ad they were very clearly setting a program up between he and Edge that got cut short due to Edge's retirement, thus creating the current storyline where it seems likely to me that Orton has filled in Edge's role as the guy to help elevate Christian to upper card status a la Jericho, Edge and CM Punk (Aka: not the top guy but a guy who is consistently booked in to marquee angles and gets the occasional short title run)

I'm sure I could come up with more examples if I really wracked my brain. And I am not saying WWE has never dropped the ball before (they most certainly have, see the above mentioned Eddie and Benoit title reigns which were both rather lackluster) I even gave up watching wrestling for 4 years because I thought the product was terrible. It was Christian's return to WWE that brought me back because I was convinced I would see him win his first world title (something virtually no one on these boards agreed with me on but ended up happening). I am also not naive enough to think Christian would be pushed as THE guy. I can't see any title regn he would have lasting more than a month or 2 (much like Edge, whe despite winning the strap 11 times never had a lengthy run). But I'm not smarky enough to think that he got completely buried last night either. Quite the contrary. The entire episode of Smackdown was about him and his Cinderella story. See:

A) his opening promo
B) an interview where Teddy Long was asked if it was fair making Christian defend his title so soon
C) constant commentary about Christian's Cinderella story
D) the match was very competitive and went through 3 commercial breaks and ended with a fluke RKo (albeit that's how most Orton matches end)
E) Randy Orton's rushed title celebration so that the camera crew could focus on a dejected Christian leaving the arena

In other words, they told the story and quite well at that. Maybe from here on out, Christian gets shuffled down the card and becomes a Chavo but I more see him becoming a CM Punk: a guy who may or may not get another title run (Punk hasn't had one since 2009) but routinely gets pushed in major story lines that are a rung or 2 below the main event level bit sometimes lands them in big matches with the Main Event players.

You all say FUCK WWE, yet continue to watch it.

Over. And over. And over. Again.

quote:

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Originally posted by nilesanderson

A) Chris Benoit losing to Kurt Angle at Royal Rumble 03 only to win the title at Wrestlemania XX a year later

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Yeah it was, a year long great story that included coming VERY close in what many thought would be his only chance, getting another shot then banned from having title matches when he got too close for the Heel GM's liking, then winning the one match that guaranteed another title match. Which he won.

quote:

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Originally posted by CamstunPWG187
You all say FUCK WWE, yet continue to watch it.

Over. And over. And over. Again.

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A couple of Christian-related news items (taken from Wrestlezone):

One, Jim Ross commented on the title switch:

"Christian and Randy Orton had a great TV match on Smackdown but I don't buy into the 'tragedy' that some fans flooded us with here on our site due to Christian losing the World Title. It isn't as if the loss ended Christian's career and who's to say that 'Captain Charisma' won't regain the title at a later date? Those that truly understand the nature of the genre have a different mindset than those who are knee jerking themselves silly."

Sounds about what you would expect JR to say, but still interesting to hear his take on it I guess.

Two, a fan report from a Smackdown house show in Pensacola, Florida:

"Randy Orton defeated Christian and Sheamus in a Triple Threat match to retain the World Hvt. Championship. Christian got a decent pop, but Orton got pop of the night, hands down. Christian and Orton did a mild stare down mid-match. They hit a suplex/powerbomb combo off the top. They hit a series of their main spots for most of the match. At 10:00 sharp, Orton nailed the RKO on Sheamus for the win. Post match, Christian and Orton stared each other and shook hands. Orton shook hands with fans ringside and up the aisle as the show concluded."

I know it's just a house show, but I take that as a good sign that Christian isn't going to immediately be shuffled down to the midcard.

While I can appreciate JR's perspective on things, I think he's underestimating how little faith those that are writing in have in how the WWE has shown themselves to follow through on plans or to put on compelling TV anymore. Maybe its not a knee jerk reaction, maybe that was the breaking point?

quote:

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Originally posted by the goon
One, Jim Ross commented on the title switch:

"Christian and Randy Orton had a great TV match on Smackdown but I don't buy into the 'tragedy' that some fans flooded us with here on our site due to Christian losing the World Title. It isn't as if the loss ended Christian's career and who's to say that 'Captain Charisma' won't regain the title at a later date? Those that truly understand the nature of the genre have a different mindset than those who are knee jerking themselves silly."

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JR's fucked in the head if he thinks that no one can see through WEE's cynicism in all of this. For a guy who got fired at least twice on the most capricious of reasons, and got brought back in such a manner that it totally buried at least one of the guys (Joey Styles) who had replaced him, he ought to know better.

Orton = t-shirt sales + screaming bitches + current random appearance in some movie. Christian just doesn't, despite having infinitely greater wrestling* and promo abilities than Orton ever will. At least they could try to be honest about the reasons why if only for a little while.

* oh, oh, there's me using that bad word again.....

JR's PR replies always bug the shit out of me. Not only are they condescending as hell, but I doubt he believes half the pap he writes. I really don't see how any reasonable person could call a pure emotional response to a well-respected veteran being fucked as a 'knee-jerk reaction', but I don't work in the Bizarro land called WWE. Over there, cats love dogs, and the Jews and Palestinians hug and call each other 'brother'.

RE: Orton's Popularity

I went over this about 15 months ago when he went from heel to face without doing anything, but here are my reasons why.

1) MOST IMPORTANT: He is awesome in the video game. Nothing more, nothing less. The guy has about 148 different signature moves and 900 variations of the RKO, not to mention that he is rated about a 95 out of 100. What that means is that every kid with the game generally picks him because its OMG WAY KEWLER than using Cena, but effects the same result. Please note that he started getting cheers two winters ago which was a month or two after SD vs Raw 10 came out. Laugh this off if you want but I'm virtually certain this has a large something to do with it.

2) SECOND MOST IMPORTANT: 2 WrestleMania's ago he was put into a heel-heel-heel triple threat match where no one wanted DiBiase to win, only I wanted Cody to win, and what was left were 20 minutes a show for 2 months where the fans needed to root for someone. They chose Orton by default since he was the most famous by a wide margin.

3) Vince, and most of America are possibly gay for male models and every girl I know who has ever seen him wants to F his brains out.

4) He has a pretty good entrance theme.

5) If Cena is Rock than Orton is Stone Cold. Somewhere out there is a 12 year old who will tell you that Steve Austin was an overrated bum that couldn't hold a candle to Orton. Somewhere else a kid is telling someone else that Nickleback kicks Pearl Jam's ass. So I guess what I'm getting at is sometimes you can't account for taste... um... or stupidity.

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As for Christian, well, the dude got royally screwed, but Vince has zero history of pushing cruiserweights as World Champions unless he has no choice. HBK was arguably the greatest of all time, and both he and Hitman only got where they got due to McMahon's steroid trial. Mysterio only got his after Guerrero's death. Hell Eddie and Voldemort only got theirs after roiding up to become heavyweight's themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Christian's but he isn't as talented as any of the 5 men in the previous paragraph, and with two mega stars in house already (Orton and Cena) Vince is far from being booked into a corner on this one.

Also, don't put it past Vince to have done this for nothing more than a big FU to Christian for dumping WWE in 2004. Dude holds grudges and has a notedly sick sense of humor.

quote:

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Originally posted by DKBroiler
5) If Cena is Rock than Orton is Stone Cold. Somewhere out there is a 12 year old who will tell you that Steve Austin was an overrated bum that couldn't hold a candle to Orton. Somewhere else a kid is telling someone else that Nickleback kicks Pearl Jam's ass. So I guess what I'm getting at is sometimes you can't account for taste... um... or stupidity.


Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Christian's but he isn't as talented as any of the 5 men in the previous paragraph, and with two mega stars in house already (Orton and Cena) Vince is far from being booked into a corner on this one.

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Ooo! Ooo! Totally meaningless thing here, but I feel less crazy: Orton directly used the Angle Slam as a setup to the RKO in this match, even though it got countered. I swear he's done this before, too. This goes back to some other thread about the Angle/Orton move stealing thing which I can't find.

I was super-upset about Christian's loss when I heard about it, but having seen it, there's a glimmer of hope that it leads to a heel turn for one of the two and a big feud. I'd be totally fine with that.

The other object of consolation: if you remember the date of Osama's assassination, you'll remember the day Christian won the title for the first time. Like, forever. Who else can you say that for?

Gotta love how JR thinks we should all have absolute faith in the writers, because they have never screwed up a major storyline or completely killed someone's momentum.

Denverpunk,

I was talking about HBK, Brett Hart, Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit as being more talented than Christian. Not Cody or Ted.

I've been watching Stargate: Universe all day, a desperate attempt to catch up ahead of the series finale. Incidentally, I have spoilers:

They're all Timelords and Destiny's mission is to escape Instrumentality.

Anyway, they've played quite a few promos for Smackdown which seem to indicate that Christian will either be turning heel or be given his walking papers soon (based on Professional Wrestling Logic).

The promo basically glosses over Christians title win and then proudly celebrates Orton's win. That section might as well be scored with this:



Now, that could mean a lot of things. But all signs point towards WWE's rumoured feelings on Christian to be an accurate report.

quote:

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Originally posted by DKBroiler
Denverpunk,

I was talking about HBK, Brett Hart, Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit as being more talented than Christian. Not Cody or Ted.

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We can have this discussion all day, but there is no way I'd put Christian anywhere near Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, and Bret Hart. Christian might be better than Hart and Benoit with promos, but in terms of overall package? No sell for me. I'd put him near or above Mysterio, but I don't look at Rey and hate him for everything he's ever been a part of.

quote:

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Originally posted by Matte

quote:

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Originally posted by CamstunPWG187
You all say FUCK WWE, yet continue to watch it.

Over. And over. And over. Again.

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Get the fuck out of here with that tired ass argument.

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I have no problem with you saying "no" to WWE. Sometimes I wish I would say "no" to them as well. The "why are you still watching the show then, dumdum?" thing is just so old. I've seen people explain why they still watch when things are near the bottom of the hill time and time again, yet it's still repeated week after week. So thumbs up to you for boycotting, but some of us will still watch because it's instinctual, because we're hoping for some nice surprises, because there are small parts of the shows that we do still enjoy and are willing to subject ourselves to all the idiotic stuff to see them, etc. It was nothing against you, so apologies if you took it as such (though I don't think you did because I see the smiley at the end of your post, so that's good), it's just the "why do you still watch?" thing that irrationally irritates me.

In other yet related news, PWTorch is reporting that this show received the lowest rating for SmackDown this year.

quote:

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Originally posted by DKBroiler
RE: Orton's Popularity

I went over this about 15 months ago when he went from heel to face without doing anything, but here are my reasons why.

1) MOST IMPORTANT: He is awesome in the video game. Nothing more, nothing less. The guy has about 148 different signature moves and 900 variations of the RKO, not to mention that he is rated about a 95 out of 100. What that means is that every kid with the game generally picks him because its OMG WAY KEWLER than using Cena, but effects the same result. Please note that he started getting cheers two winters ago which was a month or two after SD vs Raw 10 came out. Laugh this off if you want but I'm virtually certain this has a large something to do with it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by DKBroiler
Denverpunk,

I was talking about HBK, Brett Hart, Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit as being more talented than Christian. Not Cody or Ted.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matte
I have no problem with you saying "no" to WWE. Sometimes I wish I would say "no" to them as well. The "why are you still watching the show then, dumdum?" thing is just so old. I've seen people explain why they still watch when things are near the bottom of the hill time and time again, yet it's still repeated week after week. So thumbs up to you for boycotting, but some of us will still watch because it's instinctual, because we're hoping for some nice surprises, because there are small parts of the shows that we do still enjoy and are willing to subject ourselves to all the idiotic stuff to see them, etc. It was nothing against you, so apologies if you took it as such (though I don't think you did because I see the smiley at the end of your post, so that's good), it's just the "why do you still watch?" thing that irrationally irritates me.
.

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