OO Nation: All discussion pertaining to RAW (airing October 3, 2011) should be done in this thread. It will remain pinned at the top of the Current Events section for the remainder of the week. In discussing the program, we'd love it if you shared your numerical rating for the show (from a low of 0.0 to a high of 5.0, in any increment of one-tenth of a point). For full details on the ratings scale and how to join in on this informal "Battle of the Brands," please be sure to check out the OOfficial Guidelines for TV Ratings/Discussion Threads.

Tonight on RAW: there's nothing officially announced coming off of last night's PPV, but it's not too hard to guess what the key storylines will be...

First and foremost, the sneak attacks by Miz/Truth -- leading to their arrests at the end of last nights show -- seem certain to be the start of their worming their way back into WWE (rather than, as would be logical in the real world, justification for WWE to set up Melina-caliber security measures to keep them away from TV appearances)... one way to accomplish this would be to focus on Triple H beating the crap out of the two after they were already in handcuffs... Miz/Truth drop those charges if they get their jobs back? Works for me...

That, in turn, leads to HHH's control over the roster (or his lack there of)... in addition to behaving in a way that put him in legal jeopardy last night, his overall track record since becoming COO has seen him fall prey to the very same mistakes that caused Vince McMahon to be deposed (namely, making things personal, instead of keeping it All Business)... I vomit in horror at the thought of Vince coming back to TV on a weekly basis, so hopefully any twist that results in HHH's ouster will have a far better "out" than that...

Alberto del Rio's the WWE Champ again, and just in time for WWE's week long tour of Mexico... but after that tour, Alberto seems likely to face John Cena at the next PPV (Vengeance, after another too-short 3-week break), as Cena has a contractually obligated rematch as the ex-champ (something Punk no longer has)... the way the crowd reacted last night, there's still plenty of mileage to be had out of the Punk/Cena feud, but in the short term, I'd be really surprised if WWE didn't continue doing the usual with the WWE Title: Alberto has the brains to formulate clever schemes to win stipulation matches (including last night's very nicely booked HiaC), but Cena wins the straight up one-on-one fights, and in between, Alberto gets to make a run through Mexico as champ...

Where that leaves Punk? Dunno, but if Miz/Truth get their jobs back, Punk would certainly be first or second in line to want to fight them (as they double-teamed him weeks ago to set up a sneak attack by Nash, and decimated him again last night on PPV), and that could put Punk in a "strange bedfellows" situation with HHH as part of the on-going power struggle/conspiracy issue...

Other stuff: David Otunga Esq. and his clientelle of mid-carders-aspiring-to-bigger-things (Christian, Ziggler, Swagger, Rhodes) are supposedly making their big move tonight, which could further undermine HHH's authority... of those featured mid-carders, it'll be worth keeping an eye on Ziggler and Swagger, to see if they can continue to co-exist as partners in Vickie Guerrero's stable... Zack Ryder holds two consecutive pinfall wins (in non-title situations) over Ziggler, too, which is hopefully something they follow through on as a US Title feud... Air Boom could use fresh challengers for the tag titles; Ziggler/Swagger would be one option if they aren't completely dysfunctional, and Miz/Truth would certainly work if only it didn't seem like a "demotion" for them to go after the tag belts after inserting themselves at the WWE Title Level... hopefully we can count on Beth Phoenix getting off to a strong start as Women's Champ, including having Kelly and/or Eve getting decimated at her hands (or at the hands of Beth/Natalya)...

Since RAW is a de facto crossover show every week, now, I'd guess they'd spend their SmackDown-related time doing one of two things: "rehabbing" Randy Orton with a showcase match and a win after he jobbed cleanly again last night, or having Mark Henry show up to gloat on RAW in front of the audience that's double the size of SD's (and in so doing, start introducing the concept of Sheamus as his next #1 Contender)... a cameo by Cody Rhodes, in which he shows off the new (old) IC Title belt for all the fans who didn't buy the PPV last night, would also not be a bad idea...

That's all I got... plenty of stuff for WWE to work with to come up with a fun/compelling show tonight, but due to the vagaries of weather, that Sabathia vs. Verlander showdown I planned to watch Friday is now taking place tonight, and probably won't be over till after midnight (ah, Playoff Baseball: Catch the Extra Commercials and Over-Managing!)... so RAW might have to wait till Tuesday evening for me; but don't let that stop y'all from registing your disgust (or pleasure) in real time tonight....

The flOOr is yours, OO Nation. Let your voice be heard and your thoughts on Brand Supremacy be known. Don't wait till after 11pm to post, either. Pre-show previewing and prognosticating is certainly welcome. So discuss, debate, and rate!

WWE.com has a "blockbuster" twelve man tag pitting ADR, Ziggler, Swagger, Cody Rhodes, Christian, and David Otunga versus John Cena, Kofi, Bourne, Sheamus, and the reunited super-best-friends team of CM Punk and Mason Ryan. Which immediately means that the rest of the show will be devoid of any regular mid card stuff.

so, Punk is relegated to being an afterthought on the face team? Seriously, has the WWE ever botched a potentially HUGE angle this much? This whole thing has been every bit as bad as the Invasion. Truth and Miz have completely stolen Punk's thunder. At this point, it really seems like the only way to salvage this is to somehow reveal that Punk has been working with Miz and Truth, but at this point, it really seems like that would feel tacked on rather than part of the plan all along.

Wow, they couldn't even put Ryder on the team? I know it seems small but isn't he feuding with 2 maybe 3 guys on the opposite team? Not to mention air boom and mayson were involved in his match just last week. Guess he's jobbing to someone or something tonight.

[Edited on 10-3-2011 by JB KING]

quote:

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Originally posted by mooseheadjack
so, Punk is relegated to being an afterthought on the face team? Seriously, has the WWE ever botched a potentially HUGE angle this much? This whole thing has been every bit as bad as the Invasion. Truth and Miz have completely stolen Punk's thunder. At this point, it really seems like the only way to salvage this is to somehow reveal that Punk has been working with Miz and Truth, but at this point, it really seems like that would feel tacked on rather than part of the plan all along.

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I am all for the other guys getting over. Miz, Truth and Cody have all been TONS better since the start of this. It just seems ridiculous that the man that started it all, Punk, seems to be the completely forgotten man in all of this.

Again, if this all comes around to a Punk, Miz, Truth, Cody group of some sort, then great. But at the moment, Punk seems to be a complete afterthought, while HHH gets all the air time.

What? Punk called Triple H's criticism of the UFC stupid. Did anyone NOT think this was coming? I mean, hell, they kept Ryder off of the Long Island Raw (a Raw that would have potentially brought him to where he is on the card much sooner after the reactions he'd get) for subtle shots at the company. Punk called bullshit on a guy higher up than he was whilst not on TV in an outlet that not only would have been noticed for the response, but brought the initial criticism to a new set of biased eyes.

So...he lost to Triple H. He lost to ADR. He's probably going to keep losing and they're possibly going to try to keep moving him to the background while they get ready for the Rock's Survivor Series comeback and inevitable showdown with Cena.

"Complete Afterthoughts" don't main event 4 PPVs in a row, 3 of which are title matches, 2 of which they win. "Complete Afterthoughts" aren't continuously given exposure and as much mic time as Punk has, even since the angle has cooled off a bit. "Complete Afterthoughts" aren't booked to look as strong in defeat as Punk was, what with all the general punishment of a triple threat match, in a HIAC, plus going through a table, plus getting pinned(not made to tap out) due to a lead pipe beating. "Complete Afterthoughts" do not get the company shelling out for the rights to license theme music like Punk has, or as much merchandise for him as he has. Not being champion or being in another championship match (yet, since the PPV was only last fucking night) does not make you a "Complete Afterthought". WWE COULD be doing more with Punk, sure, and they WERE doing more with him not too long ago, but overall, by their standards, this is a push, and he's still in a much better place than he was six months ago. This is not me saying "wait and see", this is me saying all things considered, Punk should be pretty happy with where he is right now, because he's been in much worser spots.

You know the WWE has gone down the rabbit hole when Michael Cole starts making sense.

His exchange with Booker after Booker bitched about Henry giving Jo-Mo a second slam after the match was classic.

Booker: "That's what's wrong with Mark Henry! He could be a role model ..."

Cole: "What about Orton giving the RKO to Drew McIntyre after the match was over?!?"

Booker: "That was different!"

Brilliant logic there, Booker.

Funny thing is, as Orton was attacking McIntyre post-match, I was thinking about Austin, and how, back in the day, I used to LOVE IT when he'd stun someone for no damn reason. The WWE has basically cast Orton as Austin 2.0, but I just can't get on board. I wonder what's changed. Am I just a more mature person, or is Orton a black hole of suck with no personality at all beyond being a giant douchebag?

Yeah, it's probably that douchebag thing.

I would imagine you just grew up. It sucked when Austin did it, it sucks just as bad when Orton does it.

And so far, we are 45 minutes into RAW and we have had two squash matches and a no-contest for a whopping 7 minutes or so of wrestling

Haha, the comment "Kayfabe lives!" was visible at the bottom of the screen during Miz and Truth's Youtube video.

Why did they pretend that stuff happened after HITC was off the air? And why give away a 12 man tag that's probably going to be almost exactly the same as a Survivor Series match?

After seeing the replay from last week I think that everyone needs to sell the Rough Ryder like Dolph did. He made that move look great.

I know K2 has never been talented but tonight she took it to a brand new level. What the flying fuck was that shrill shrieking temper tantrum all about? I thought she was turning heel because they couldn't possibly have thought such a hillariously bad hissy fit (worthy of a two-year-old) could be taken seriously as "emotion" over losing the divas title. Honestly, what was the point of that and how can she remain a face despite acting like such an entitled brat/drama queen/melodramatic whore?

quote:

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Originally posted by nOOb
What? Punk called Triple H's criticism of the UFC stupid. Did anyone NOT think this was coming? I mean, hell, they kept Ryder off of the Long Island Raw (a Raw that would have potentially brought him to where he is on the card much sooner after the reactions he'd get) for subtle shots at the company. Punk called bullshit on a guy higher up than he was whilst not on TV in an outlet that not only would have been noticed for the response, but brought the initial criticism to a new set of biased eyes.

So...he lost to Triple H. He lost to ADR. He's probably going to keep losing and they're possibly going to try to keep moving him to the background while they get ready for the Rock's Survivor Series comeback and inevitable showdown with Cena.

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Beth is afraid of getting raped.

Strong, Powerful Beth Phoenix just said how scared all the divas are of being hurt by the big bad men.

Amazing.

So ... the WWE has decided that turning the entire roster (minus, for some reason, Cena, Punk and Orton) into heels is a smart move. I guess that's ... interesting?

All I can say is that I am definitely intrigued for next week's episode. That rarely ever happens anymore.

Walks out of thread.

That ending was boring as shit.

HHH gets way too much airtime and it doesn't help that the live crowd creams their pants whenever he's in the ring. Though he eggs them on by coming out to his normal entrance music, pandering to them, etc. I hope this is going somewhere good because it is boring the hell out of me.

The "WWE Universe" signs reading "Kevin Dunn Loves Kayfabe Commentaire" & "Bastion Booger 4 Life" were pretty epic!

I was noticing how Punk, Cena, & Orton were absent as well. I am thinking that next week, they will be the only three to be on air at the opening, and we'll have some sort of way they become more of the "talking heads" for the rest of the roster, being they are the top guys now.

But I see this paving the way for the inevitable Vinnie Mac return. And the "Johnny Ace is always texting" teases are really getting annoying, especially since they haven't really addressed it in any way. I mean, wasn't "texting" (to Kevin Nash) what started this downward spiral of suck storyline?

However, I am intrigued on where this is going to go next week, even though we all know the inevitable conclusion already. So I guess they hooked me for another week.

The rest of the show was pretty "eh!" for me. Kelly Kelly's screaming, JoMo's always-ready jobbing, and the rest of it all, did nothing for me.

Now...Bring on the Muppets!!!

I thought the ending was really epic. When they got down to cameraman laying their equipment down... that was intense. (Hey Rick, who do I talk to about getting in on some of that WWE money?)

Im wondering how they are gonna explain Smackdown going on the air without a hitch, almost all that roster walked out. Are we gonna have HHH vs HHH with special guest ref/time keeper/announcer/color commentator HHH the entire 2 hours?

Am I supposed to still be in wait & see mode?

quote:

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Originally posted by DevilSoprano
Am I supposed to still be in wait & see mode?

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The crowd booed the entire WWE roster, cameramen and announcers and intermittently cheered Triple H as he stood with his arms raised and a wry smile on his face for ten minutes on live television. He finally did it. He buried the entire roster all at once.

Damn he's good.

quote:

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Originally posted by dragondragon
The crowd booed the entire WWE roster, cameramen and announcers and intermittently cheered Triple H as he stood with his arms raised and a wry smile on his face for ten minutes on live television. He finally did it. He buried the entire roster all at once.

Damn he's good.

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I could get behind all of this IF I thought it might be headed somewhere fun & interesting. But instead I just have this sinking feeling that this whole thing is the lamest effort yet in the annual We Gotta Write Vinnie Mac Off TV For His Vacation series, and that his inevitable return is all that it is leading to. Nothing more, nothing less, just a lazy way to get to the expected conclusion.

K2's shrieking was not only annoying but wang deflating. God help her many notches in the bedpost if that's the way she acts in the sack.

I think I finally figured out what the disconnect is with Mark Henry, atleast for some. Henry is so reminiscent of the monster du jour that Hogan used to battle in the 80's...King Kong Bundy, Earthquake, Hercules, etc. But those guys would challenge Hulkster, get beat on PPV & lose the feud, and become an afterthought. We're not used to guys like Henry actually getting a run with the belt. I'm kind of digging his schtick, and no one is more shocked by that than me.

I thought the end was pretty interesting. JR being the last guy to walk out, and the last face left was kind of strange. It would have been a much more powerful moment if Cena, Orton or Punk did something. I was waiting for Punk to get in the ring and talk to HHH about everything he's done wrong and maybe stick up for him, but no one came out.

I thought the tag match was a lot of fun. Interesting that Sheamus was the one to get the pin.

As for Smackdown, they could say Teddy Long is the GM of Smackdown, and it's his show. I dunno, it doesn't make sense when you break it down.

There were a couple of pointless segments. Mainly the Santino squash of Jinder MahJobber that would have been a boring Superstars match, and the promo with Christian, Ziggler and so on. HHH came out and called them pussies and no one did a thing. Michael Cole saying something like "What was the point of that?" actually spoke for the fan base.

Next week HHH should bring in a bunch of indie worker scabs. That could be how they debut guys like Kings of Wrestling and Tyler Black. Don't really know where else they could go since literally everyone walked out tonight. Though I'd imagine everything is resolved on Smackdown and next week is back to business as usual.

The more I think about it, the more I hate the "no confidence" B.S.

Oh noes! An announcer were attack and subject to physical assault!

Oh noes! Persons of fired appear from crowd and attack!

Oh noes! Lady women of WWE feel unsafe from attack!

Oh noes! Every goddamned storyline from wrasslin' history is now unacceptable and all wrasslers mad and walk out! Total sense this makes!

quote:

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Originally posted by mooseheadjack
And so far, we are 45 minutes into RAW and we have had two squash matches and a no-contest for a whopping 7 minutes or so of wrestling

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stu
"Complete Afterthoughts" don't main event 4 PPVs in a row, 3 of which are title matches, 2 of which they win. "Complete Afterthoughts" aren't continuously given exposure and as much mic time as Punk has, even since the angle has cooled off a bit. "Complete Afterthoughts" aren't booked to look as strong in defeat as Punk was, what with all the general punishment of a triple threat match, in a HIAC, plus going through a table, plus getting pinned(not made to tap out) due to a lead pipe beating. "Complete Afterthoughts" do not get the company shelling out for the rights to license theme music like Punk has, or as much merchandise for him as he has. Not being champion or being in another championship match (yet, since the PPV was only last fucking night) does not make you a "Complete Afterthought". WWE COULD be doing more with Punk, sure, and they WERE doing more with him not too long ago, but overall, by their standards, this is a push, and he's still in a much better place than he was six months ago. This is not me saying "wait and see", this is me saying all things considered, Punk should be pretty happy with where he is right now, because he's been in much worser spots.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cherokee Jack
Haha, the comment "Kayfabe lives!" was visible at the bottom of the screen during Miz and Truth's Youtube video.

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After Raw went off the air, Zack Ryder comes back out to change his mind, and gets Pedigreed by HHH.

http://vids.wwe.com/13503/wwecom-exclusive-triple-h-counte

Yep...it's all about the Game.

My friend had a point with the no confidence vote too. They cite it as an unsafe working environment. When you consider the things that happened during the Attitude era that went unchecked though, it's just kind of silly:

- Undertaker crucified people
- Kane set a stagehand on fire and there were even inferno matches
- Buh Buh Ray was infatuated with putting women through tables
- Big Bossman was actually hung from HiaC
- HHH was dropped from a crane in a car
- Austin tried to murder Rikishi via vehicular homicide
- Foley/Funk were put in a garbage bin and launched off the stage
- Naked Mideon
- Etc, etc, etc...

But suddenly a bell shot, announcers getting beaten up by unruly champions and two fired employees coming back with metal pipes and bats create a more unsafe working environment, one that leads to a no confidence vote and the entire roster walking out... ooookay then.

I have to admit I'm mildly interested in where they go with this, but I agree with what was said earlier. How is THIS an unsafe working environment in WWE world? People have been fired and appeared later to cause chaos over and over again in WWE. As Triple H said, Nexus destroyed the entire set, choked out the ring announcer, and "tried to destroy WWE" all while being kayfabe unemployed at the time. It really rings hollow that Truth and Miz do one run-in and get arrested and a bunch of roided up bodybuilders are whining that it's unsafe. DX did far worse than this and the entire roster cheered them on. Also, the refs choose NOW to complain that they get beat up all the time? Have they conveniently forgotten every match they've ever officiated? They're trying to make people forget an entire era of wrestling so that they can start this new "reality" era and it just comes off as really silly.

If folks hate the show so bloody much than don't watch. I haven't watched in a few weeks now. I read about it and if there is anything interesting I'll hunt it down on youtube. Trust me, it's better for your mental health.

For example, I watched the closing segment to see how ridiculous it was and it lived up to it. Just like during Punk vs HHH with Punk wanting change which was essentially shitting all over the current product, now you have HHH saying the current wrestlers are lame and weak for bringing lawyers in etc. So once again the wwe bookers are shitting on the current product - so if they don't like it, why should the viewer?

And HHH and his lame ass crowd pander "I work for you, the wwe universe" is lame shit. It's desperation pandering. I hated it when Punk went into "I want change the wwe for the fans" hypermode when he came back after his big one week absence with the title.

It's to the point where I think the wwe is in real trouble, they don't have a clue what will sell anymore. They're too worried about low ratings to ever try to build anything or anybody.

They completely fucked up the Punk storyline because of their hard-on for instant gratification of ratings. They completely fucked up Punk vs Cena as a long term program because Stephanie wanted her husband to be the central figure.

Punk's pop in Chicago to now only a few months later. It would have been like Austin giving his 3:16 speech and than deciding "Meh, we don't think that worked, let's go in a different direction". Or quitting on The Rock's "Die, Rocky, Die" heel turn because he was taking too much heat from the established heels.

WWE isn't the company to catch lightning in a bottle and run with it anymore, they're about the status quo and 3.0+ ratings as the end all be all.

PS. Mark Henry is 40 yrs old. While a run is a good career capper, I can't help but think such a push would have been better off on a guy maybe 10 years younger.

[Edited on 10-4-2011 by C.MontgomeryPunk]

IMO, Beth's character got killed last night.

She's spent the past few weeks getting beaten by Kelly Kelly, a girl that a woman like Beth should be able to tear right through. After winning the championship on Sunday, I started to have hope for her. Then yesterday, Kelly beats her down without Beth being able to show any offense at all.

And then she goes out and says that, basically taking away all credibility her character, a strong-willed ass-kicker who has never hidden behind the fact that she is a woman and isn't afraid of mixing it up with the male wrestlers if need be, had.

The moment Beth referred to herself as a girl that is afraid for her well-being, I'm sure that somewhere in Columbus, Ohio, Firewoman had a stroke.

[Edited on 10-4-2011 by anglefan85]

The whole storyline sucks. Period. It's going to end up with "The Union" and then VKM is going to come in and break it because that's what Republicans do.

quote:

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Originally posted by DevilSoprano
Am I supposed to still be in wait & see mode?

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quote:

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Originally posted by C.MontgomeryPunk
If folks hate the show so bloody much than don't watch. I haven't watched in a few weeks now. I read about it and if there is anything interesting I'll hunt it down on youtube. Trust me, it's better for your mental health.

For example, I watched the closing segment to see how ridiculous it was and it lived up to it. Just like during Punk vs HHH with Punk wanting change which was essentially shitting all over the current product, now you have HHH saying the current wrestlers are lame and weak for bringing lawyers in etc. So once again the wwe bookers are shitting on the current product - so if they don't like it, why should the viewer?

And HHH and his lame ass crowd pander "I work for you, the wwe universe" is lame shit. It's desperation pandering. I hated it when Punk went into "I want change the wwe for the fans" hypermode when he came back after his big one week absence with the title.

It's to the point where I think the wwe is in real trouble, they don't have a clue what will sell anymore. They're too worried about low ratings to ever try to build anything or anybody.

They completely fucked up the Punk storyline because of their hard-on for instant gratification of ratings. They completely fucked up Punk vs Cena as a long term program because Stephanie wanted her husband to be the central figure.

Punk's pop in Chicago to now only a few months later. It would have been like Austin giving his 3:16 speech and than deciding "Meh, we don't think that worked, let's go in a different direction". Or quitting on The Rock's "Die, Rocky, Die" heel turn because he was taking too much heat from the established heels.

WWE isn't the company to catch lightning in a bottle and run with it anymore, they're about the status quo and 3.0+ ratings as the end all be all.

PS. Mark Henry is 40 yrs old. While a run is a good career capper, I can't help but think such a push would have been better off on a guy maybe 10 years younger.

[Edited on 10-4-2011 by C.MontgomeryPunk]

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quote:

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Originally posted by the goon
There's no way Orton/McIntyre was a squash. Yeah, Orton won, but McIntyre got to look surprisingly competitive for a guy who hasn't been on TV since I don't know when. And I would normally agree about the match times, but having the near 30-minute six on six match kind of made up for it in my book.

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With HHH standing there alone in the ring I had two thoughts:
1) those independent contractors should form a union or something
2) that would have been the best time ever for a fan run in

quote:

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Originally posted by DudeLove721

Let me get this straight: You started off your post telling people to stop watching the show if they hate it so much. Then you proceeded to tell everyone how you saught out the ending because of how much people were complaining about it. Then you joined in to complain about it yourself.

How exactly is this any better?

I realize no one is pointing a gun to our heads to watch this stuff but as fans of wrestling, I think we have a right to discuss the product -- either positively or negatively. I think some of the posts here are incredibly stupid but, using your own logic, if you don't like it... don't read it. That's generally what I do.

And I am not just targeting you here, I go to a few sites where people do the "if you don't like it, don't watch it" thing in a discussion and it just annoys me in general.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Is Good517Show ends with Cena on top? We bitch.

Show ends with Cena losing? We bitch because we don't like who he's losing to.

Show ends with something completely different? We still bitch.

Sometimes I think that short of CM Punk and Daniel Bryan running roughshod and making the entire WWE roster tap out in the middle of the ring to end the show, some of you guys will never be pleased. And even then, someone's going to come in and bitch because they think Punk is overrated.

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A decent 12 man tag. The other matches were bleh. And what's with the promotional package hyping up Brodus Clay? I thought he was Hugh Morris at first.

On the walkout segment: It's unique, I'll give it that. I rarely hear referees on the stick. I've never seen cameramen lay down their tools and walk. But it could have been so much more. Jerry Lawler was the only face to speak. Everybody else talking was a rulebreaker or worse, and HHH even got to hang a lampshade on it. Where were the top faces: Punk? Cena? Orton? Kelly Kelly's insane screeching ass? Don't think the crowd didn't notice.

They did everything in their power to keep HHH looking like the only sane man on the floor, and that annoys me more than anything. This was not a triple; this was a bunt.

[Edited on 10-4-2011 by gimmickless]

i think michael cole is an alien

quote:

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Originally posted by anglefan85
The moment Beth referred to herself as a girl that is afraid for her well-being, I'm sure that somewhere in Columbus, Ohio, Firewoman had a stroke.

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quote:

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Originally posted by C.MontgomeryPunk
And HHH and his lame ass crowd pander "I work for you, the wwe universe" is lame shit. It's desperation pandering.
[Edited on 10-4-2011 by C.MontgomeryPunk]

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quote:

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Originally posted by mooseheadjack
I don't see how you can call it anything BUT a squash. McIntyre got the jobber entrance during the commercial, then got beat in like 3 minutes. He got some token moves in, but was never in any serious position to win the match. Even during the old days of superstars Barry Horowitz would get a few moves in. And then Orton dropped him after the bell because........because why exactly? Because they desperately want Orton to be the next Austin

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quote:

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Originally posted by mooseheadjack And no, the 12 man match DOESN'T make up for it. The 12 man was a good match on its own, but that doesn't make up for an hour of Orton squash, Henry squash, diva no-contest and Santino squash.

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Cole said if HHH lost the vote of no confident he had two basic choices, quit completely or bring in someone he trusts to head things up. I'm calling it now: next week we see the debut of Deputy COO/GM/Special Conspiracy Buster CM Punk.

My favorite part of last night was the return of this Snickers Halloween commercial.

It would have been awesome if the Anonymous Raw GM's computer sprung legs with wheels on them, and rolled away too... like Frink's auto-dialer.

quote:

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Originally posted by gimmickless
A decent 12 man tag. The other matches were bleh. And what's with the promotional package hyping up Brodus Clay? I thought he was Hugh Morris at first.

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quote:

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Originally posted by punkerhardcore
It would have been awesome if the Anonymous Raw GM's computer sprung legs with wheels on them, and rolled away too... like Frink's auto-dialer.

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Can review almost any episode of Raw now, accurately, without watching it, by just posting �That was pretty lame� every week. It will sound like you sat through it, and it will be a fair summary.

As for that segment at the end, yikes! I honestly wouldn�t know where to start. So I won�t start. Lot of relevant things have been pointed out already anyway, but from a motivational/stylistic/logic standpoint, it was laughable. And made TNA look like The Wire for �realism� by comparison.

I am a nice man so will still go out of my way to give WWE props. At least they mixed up the formula a bit. Good of them to attempt to have some big drama for a change IMO. But 'walk out' finale aside, was basically the same cards in the deck as normal, was just that they'd given the cards a shuffle beforehand. Oh and that 6-on-6 match, which was of little consequence, went on WAY too long for my taste...

Is this whole angle really what Punk was asking us to "wait and see!" then? Or what?! Are we still in the middle of what he had high hopes for?! Or is this all contingency BS, and what Punk had in mind is now only happening in an alternate universe? Do wonder what Punk's honest thoughts about the current direction would be...

And that's not to say I'm complaining that Punk isn't seemingly the focal point right now. I don't particularly care. Nor do I require Daniel Bryan to be pushed to the moon or whatever an apologist (or someone with different/lower standards) might say. I just want to see an entertaining show which isn't lame and naff. Can have Alex Riley be the focal point as far as I'm concerned, assuming there's an entertaining, well-thought-out non-crappy way of doing it... Which is doubtful right now, but you get the point, maybe...

That can't be Doug Almighty. If the show sucks it's only because you're not getting massive amounts of CM Punk and Daniel Bryan. Forget the facts that the show has been horrible for weeks again. It's only cause you're a wanker and want to suck off Punk and Bryan.

Forget the fact that the best parts of wrestling have been Henry, Ziggler, and Cody. If you don't like the show it's cause CM Punk hasn't brought in Cabana, Black, and the Kings and Daniel Bryan hasn't cashed in his Money in the Bank and squashed Henry yet.

I shouldn't be shocked that people will continue to defend the show but I am. And they continue to go to bullshit reasons why people don't like the show.

The ending of last night's Raw reminded me of The Simpsons's spoof of Phantom Menace, in which a long bit of parliamentary procedure is used as a substitute for a plot. It even had a returning Jerry Lawler play the part of the At-At that crashes the party only to sit down an discuss the measure. In the words of fake-Yoda "The decision is final. Tabled this motion is... or is it?"

Reference video:
http://youtu.be/IvJD9fHS8Hk

On thus plus side, this could be Cena's chance to really freshen up his character by letting his Jar Jar flag fly and turning up his Binksian mannerisms all the way to 11.

I don't even know that I HATED anything last night.

- the Orton squash (and I refuse to call it anything but a squash) was completely unnecessary. I am not sure why the WWE insists on Orton showing ZERO weakness. He had a brutal match last night, and still managed to bury Drew in less than five minutes. Orton could have lost this match, it would have helped Drew and done ZERO harm to Orton. Zero. And the attack after the bell was just stupid. This guy is supposed to be a face, and he does heel shit all the time, they are just begging for the Austin comparisons. Ok, so maybe I hated this, simply because it was completely unnecessary. I can't imagine for one second that a beat down Orton, you know, actually SELLING the brutality of the match last night, losing to Drew after a hard fought match would cause any fan to say "well I can NEVER buy that Orton guy as a world title contender again!"

- The Henry squash. See, I had no problem with this. It could have been a little longer, for the same reasons as Orton, sell the brutality of the HITC. But Henry is a monster. He is 400lbs of fury, he SHOULD be built as this crazy destructive force, and HE should be the one brutalizing opponents after the match, not Orton.

- Kelly Kelly. Ok, I lied. I hated this. There is no reason at all for KK to be on even footing with Nattie and Beth. None. They are both CLEARLY better than she is, and the story shouldn't have been them overcoming HER it should have been HER overcoming them.

- the 12 man. Meh. It was there. I was distracted while that match was on, but it seemed good enough. Nothing great, nothing horrible. Would it kill the WWE to let a heel team win one of these giant matches though? Do the faces ALWAYS have to go over? It really is ok to make the heels look strong WWE. That way when the faces DO overcome them and win? It makes the faces look stronger.

- the Great Walkout. Meh, I don't know. I guess I was hoping they would just play this straight with HHH just sliding into the position of power and letting the wrestlers tell the story. Instead it seemed to be the HHH show from day one and I have seen enough of that. I agree with what someone else on here said, this just seems to be paving the way for either Vince or Steph to come back and run things. No thank you. Now, if we get some infusion of talent coming in next week for a "scab" show, then great. If it goes back to everyone coming back and HHH stepping aside, meh. I also wonder why Cena, Orton and Punk were not out there, I hope it was intentional and not just an oops by the WWE. Seems like we have had that happen before "EVERYONE has to be at ringside!" then the big names aren't there

And I am tired of the whole "oh you just hate it because Punk and Bryan aren't DOMINATING!" no, I hate it right now because it is boring. They took a white hot angle between Punk and Cena and watered it down with Nash and Johnny Ace. They COULD save the whole thing a little if somehow Truth and Miz end up with Punk, but I dunno. I don't really have faith in the WWE for good storytelling anymore

I spoke my mind on Punk before, but, serious question: do they even let him talk anymore? I read they gave him a segment at the PPV, but that was it.

quote:

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Originally posted by nOOb
I spoke my mind on Punk before, but, serious question: do they even let him talk anymore? I read they gave him a segment at the PPV, but that was it.

---

I guess I was the only person who said I was intrigued by the end. No. I was not intrigued by the final segment itself but intrigued because no one can be sure whats gonna happen next. Sure it might turn out to be as tepid as tapwater, but it can also be taken to some new directions. Punk was not given the mic all night, nor was he in the final segment. That makes it interesting next week as to what he has to say about how things turned out this week. (Same goes for Cena, but basically who cares.) Lauranitis may assume temporary power and they might *MIGHT* just reveal who the anonymous GM is. Nash? Vince being in a certain master plan all along... where does that leave C M Punk and the conspiracy theorists? And all of them in the 'certan masterplan' might just embarass HHH because he sobbed like a baby, as he told Vince that he was let go.

Or, as I said it might turn out to be a really really stupid. Again. I give WWE credit where its due. I mean sure more than 50% of the time it sucks and is boring, but in their eyes they are filling up arenas week in and week out and hence even if they did read the hue and cry raised by *sophisticated* internet users like the people over here, they would believe it to be an opinion of a minority group. But they did give Punk a big push, are giving Ryder a certain recognition. (I dont much care about Daniel Bryan I am sorry). Cena and Orton will never go away, we have to make our peace with that. With arrival of The Rock due November, I am just thinkin WWE are just passing time away.

But still, and this refers to 'if you dont like it and wanna bitch about it, dont watch it' type posts. They have always made no sense to me. I mean, its like watching any show, or any sport or any movie or any video game for that matter where you are going to like some parts and dislike the other parts. I for one, always switch on RAW, and work on my laptop or surf the web or chat or read a novel while the show goes on and I hardly pay attention to it until I see something interesting. Like a Punk segment, or some other good segments here and there. Like until WM26, I only watched RAW, for a certain HBK, and I even liked all the DX craziness and I did not care what anyone said about that. Good things or bad things. Sure I hope WWE become as awesome as in the attitude era, but I cant help it, so I appreciate the good parts and say WTF to the other parts and move on.

The gist, that, 'I dont waste my time watching a crappy show and then come here and bitch about it and hence I am more sensible and cooler than you', makes me laugh. To each their own. Get over it.


P.S. HHH pedigreeing Ryder may also mean something... or not. :|

quote:

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Originally posted by DevilSoprano
That can't be Doug Almighty. If the show sucks it's only because you're not getting massive amounts of CM Punk and Daniel Bryan. Forget the facts that the show has been horrible for weeks again. It's only cause you're a wanker and want to suck off Punk and Bryan.

Forget the fact that the best parts of wrestling have been Henry, Ziggler, and Cody. If you don't like the show it's cause CM Punk hasn't brought in Cabana, Black, and the Kings and Daniel Bryan hasn't cashed in his Money in the Bank and squashed Henry yet.

I shouldn't be shocked that people will continue to defend the show but I am. And they continue to go to bullshit reasons why people don't like the show.

---

My 1000th post....about fucking time!

But back to topic. I for one have an open mind when they present me with something that leaves me wondering.....what are they going to do next? Even if it is just for a short time gratification. I say short time, because I'm afraid when this thing unravels, that we will be left with Vince telling all of us how stupid we've been and HHH asking his father-in-law why he stabbed him in the back. The only positive about Trips being removed as COO of the WWE, is that we don't have to see him verbally bury everyone on the roster. He will just go back to doing it in the middle of the ring.

There better be a good explanation of why Punk, Orton and Cena weren't present at ringside, instead of just these guys are above this kind of crap.

So I assume we won't have Smackdown this Friday since everyone walked out?....wait a minute, they advertised the Big Show's return....hmmmm

For whatever it's worth, from rajah:

quote:

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Many fans probably realized during the closing segment on RAW that many top babyface stars (John Cena, CM Punk, Randy Orton, Sheamus, Mason Ryan, Eve Torres and Kelly Kelly) were not at ringside for the walkout.

According to a WWE source, writers knew that fans would boo the Superstars who walked out on Triple H and did not want to put that negative heat on their top babyfaces.

---

if there is any truth to that Rajah report, its just pathetic. If you are going to try and do an angle that has never been done before, fucking go all in, or don't even waste our time.

Very important to protect Cena, who certainly never gets booed.

And since when the fuck are Mason Ryan & Eve top babyfaces?

[Edited on 10-4-2011 by punkerhardcore]

The company mantra for the last couple of months from both Vince and HHH has been that "No one is bigger than the WWE", so the ending of this week certainly leaves us with some questions:

Should HHH step down because he's adversly affecting the WWE and him removing himself from the equation might lead to the return of those that walked out?

Should HHH just walk out and say that anyone that walked out last week is now fired. In the interim we get some lesser stars and indy talent getting a chance to shine.

Personally I think this whole story should have played out a bit slower as it would have clouded the issues a bit more and given those that walked out a bit more gravitas in terms of their complaints. We're here now, so I guess the question is what do you do with it?

I wouldn't be a fan of HHH stepping down as I think it would rob a bit from his win over Punk, which I for one believe was more the middle act of a long term story meant to give Punk some more adversity for when he ultimately triumphs over HHH (at WM or whatever). I also don't think we've really gotten all the mileage out of HHH as the boss as they could as of yet.

I think the idea of firing everyone who walked out and then debuting a number of the indy stars the WWE has been sitting on would be just both a cool moment, and a very unique way of introducing some fresh faces. You could then have several lesser heels come slinking back in hopes of winning their jobs back.

The rest? I think you could genuinely set up an interesting invasion type scenario with the likes of Miz, Truth, Christian, and Otunga (their missing some muscle though...) working wiht the likes of Nash and Laurenaitis as an NWO type faction... maybe due to some lawsuit they get their own rules and protected status - their secret benefactor; Vince McMahon. If they wanted to carry this a bit further you could even have Vince "buy" air time on Smackdown and attempt to create his own fed.

I'm guessing we get something somewhere in between the two with HHH staying on, but conceding a lot of his power, or that several of the heels start getting special rules and protected status for them...

Just to put this out there, but that kind of carnage where new guys are getting pushed and the old regime is somewhat handcuffed would definitely fit into a lot of what Punk has said... It doesn't matter then that he lost his title or got screwed, he was the one that tipped the domino or lit the fuse on the powder keg (it also wouldn't matter if Vince got back involved with his own NWO faction or whatever- he's just playing his part in the chaos). This line of thinking would also give us a good reason for Punk to face HHH once more, both with a lot more on the line as Punk tries to close out that last bit of old school Vince's fair haired favourites.

So maybe this will tank and suck, but I also see a lot of potential that seemlessly fits with the last several months of TV.

quote:

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Originally posted by DevilSoprano
That can't be Doug Almighty. If the show sucks it's only because you're not getting massive amounts of CM Punk and Daniel Bryan. Forget the facts that the show has been horrible for weeks again. It's only cause you're a wanker and want to suck off Punk and Bryan.

Forget the fact that the best parts of wrestling have been Henry, Ziggler, and Cody. If you don't like the show it's cause CM Punk hasn't brought in Cabana, Black, and the Kings and Daniel Bryan hasn't cashed in his Money in the Bank and squashed Henry yet.

I shouldn't be shocked that people will continue to defend the show but I am. And they continue to go to bullshit reasons why people don't like the show.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug Almighty
If Bryan isn�t champ before November, I am going to kill myself! And Vince McMahon.

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quote:

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Originally posted by gimmickless
They did everything in their power to keep HHH looking like the only sane man on the floor, and that annoys me more than anything. This was not a triple; this was a bunt.

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quote:

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Originally posted by DevilSoprano
Am I supposed to still be in wait & see mode?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stu
"Complete Afterthoughts" don't main event 4 PPVs in a row, 3 of which are title matches, 2 of which they win. "Complete Afterthoughts" aren't continuously given exposure and as much mic time as Punk has, even since the angle has cooled off a bit. "Complete Afterthoughts" aren't booked to look as strong in defeat as Punk was, what with all the general punishment of a triple threat match, in a HIAC, plus going through a table, plus getting pinned (not made to tap out) due to a lead pipe beating. "Complete Afterthoughts" do not get the company shelling out for the rights to license theme music like Punk has, or as much merchandise for him as he has. Not being champion or being in another championship match (yet, since the PPV was only last fucking night) does not make you a "Complete Afterthought". WWE COULD be doing more with Punk, sure, and they WERE doing more with him not too long ago, but overall, by their standards, this is a push, and he's still in a much better place than he was six months ago. This is not me saying "wait and see", this is me saying all things considered, Punk should be pretty happy with where he is right now, because he's been in much worser spots.

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From now on, I'm referring to Kelly as BITCH RAGE

quote:

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Originally posted by Dominator

Yes, 'cause it's about what you didn't see. CM Punk's silence/absence during the segment spoke volumes. Remember, this is the dufus son-in-law. I've been thinking for weeks now that everything, I mean everything, that's gone on since Punk came back to unify the titles was about getting the McMahons out of power. I think he's suckering Ace along and will fire him as soon as he gets control (or gets who he wants to be in control). I think he may even be using Stephanie to a certain extent. I'm telling you, it's all very "24"-ish and, as a fan of that show from its first episode 'til it's last, you have to understand that in a drama like this there's always another machination, there's always something else going on, there's always something you're not anticipating, something you'll only see if you're REALLY paying attention to every detail. Which is hard to do if you're only following the show on message boards, but I digress. Think about this, why do you think Beth was in this scene and sounding all weak and scared? Think it was because they just wanted one of the girls to speak? One of the Bellas could've done it just as easily.

This angle has challenged wrestling fans to think outside the box when it comes to fantasy booking and what might happen next. I mean, come on, who saw a "No Confidence Vote Main Event Promo" segment coming this week? And who saw EVERYONE (who was present) walking out on HHH? Even JR, who HHH just hired back a couple months ago?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug Almighty

Ahh, but yeah, some of the defenders baffle me too. Especially when they use BS arguments, like you said, but also because they're effectively ignoring the evidence. Unless they LIKE lame/lazy stuff, or alternatively, don't really like it, but choose to defend it anyway?! Bizarre.

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yes yes, quit watching it already. Don't talk about it unless you have something POSITIVE to say!

And why COULDN'T it be the worst episode ever? I am not saying it WAS, but that could certainly be a valid opinion on the show.

quote:

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Originally posted by gimmickless
They did everything in their power to keep HHH looking like the only sane man on the floor, and that annoys me more than anything. This was not a triple; this was a bunt.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by mooseheadjack
yes yes, quit watching it already. Don't talk about it unless you have something POSITIVE to say!

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Dominator:-

Suggesting present day WWE has much in common with 24 is pretty �out there�... Just hope you�re aware of that.

If the current WWE creative system produced some of the classic episodes of 24, we�d have seen things like Jack Bauer standing in the back corridor of CTU, where he�d receive an �unexpected� call to come into CTU. His superior wouldn�t ask why he was already at CTU, or why he was already dressed ready for the specific mission he didn�t know about yet. It would all just happen matter-of-factly. All the bad guys would be instantly identifiable to Bauer, as they�d naturally group together with other bad guys, and all the good guys would group together too (usually with with no storyline impetus to do so)...

Also, a lot of the show wouldn�t actually have Bauer on it at all. Some weeks he wouldn�t appear until the very end and not do much. Some cliffhangers relating to the main story wouldn�t be followed up on the week after either. Instead, the show would open with some unrelated characters having an argument which has nothing to do with anything. And then, Teddy Long would come out... And... Well, you get the idea.

Anyway! If the fantasyland stuff you�re talking about IS part of the overall plan right now (which seems dubious, though I have talked about a potential �under the radar� story a lot myself) you have to see the utter lack of success of the approach?! Great to have interesting sub-plots and themes and stealth arcs, they can be very rewarding, but there should still be a satisfying overt story! And for the most part, WWE doesn�t put anything decent on the menu. If it�s a �big� happening, it�ll probably be some lame shit, and if it�s matches, it�ll probably be some samey, methodical, over-produced thing, or a glorifed jobber effort.

Certainly wouldn�t expect to see some thrown-together 6-on-6 match which lasts about 4 hours and spans 13 segments (or whatever it was)... On a show written by creatively savvy people who value every second of TV time, and agonise over every detail.

quote:

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Originally posted by Paddlefoot

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug Almighty

Ahh, but yeah, some of the defenders baffle me too. Especially when they use BS arguments, like you said, but also because they're effectively ignoring the evidence. Unless they LIKE lame/lazy stuff, or alternatively, don't really like it, but choose to defend it anyway?! Bizarre.

---

Actually the "defenders" have been more than critical of WWE in the past and will continue to be so in the future. There is no "WWE fanboi" here giving RAW a 100% passing grade here. In fact, the WWE sk8er boi is more of a mythical beast than all those the Welfare Queens that somehow keep making like so awful for GOP'ers. It's more like that some of the folks here on OO who, for reasons of their own, are possessed of total hatred of the WWE product simply can't understand why others aren't. That the whole OO Universe isn't bent towards their particular viewpoint is confusing to them and it makes them angry. Well, it's all just too fucking bad for them, isn't it? Sometimes in school you have to sit right next to a gay kid or even of the blacks, so you really have to get used to the fact that life ain't always gonna meeting up to your own definition of fair.

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I never thought I would see everyone shitting on a RAW show that did not contain the following: A Cena intense promo, a Cena win, or even Cena fighting off multiple opponents.

I thought the 12 man tag match was very good, everyone in the match got to have some time in the ring, and it lasted a good long time. Unlike the Divas 12-woman that broke down in 2 minutes a few weeks ago.

And as been said previously the ending walk out was not quite a WTF moment, but it does make me wonder what is going to happen next week (which I will miss being out of the country), which is what a main even promo should do, it should entice you to watch next week.

Like Pyro said, the second hour was just basically those two parts and I think they both worked.

KK going crazy is a different way to go with the character, yes Beth is bigger and better, but if you get into a fight with someone crazy like that with nothing to lose (which I think is where they are going) you are going to have a lot on your hands, especially if you are not expecting it, so if they are going to continue this character, I think it could be interesting.

Say what you want about Vickie, not many others on the roster generate that much heat from the audience as her.

There had been previous dirtsheet rumors about one of KK or Eve going heel and the two feuding.

This could be the start of that.

^

Greatest feud ever.

I didn't mean to offend anyone with the earlier post. All the annoying "Sob! Triple-H ruined my whole day!" whining that was going on around here just got to me.

This shit better not get nominated for bOOardies....last year's WWE vs. TNA was bad enough.....

TNA? They fucking suck!

So overblown hyperbole like saying you guys would only be happy if the show features CM Punk and Daniel Bryan beating everybody is ridiculous?

Please, guys, tell me more about how lame it is to use ridiculous hyperbole to make points about whether you liked or disliked the show?



Also, everyone who read my post and only took that away is missing my point. For the last six years, people have been complaining because WWE is too scared to try new things, and when they DO try new things everyone shits on them anyway. Granted, most of you guys are basically saying "IT'S GONNA FAIL" and based on their track record it's a fairly valid conclusion to jump to, but sometimes I can't help but feel like some of you guys want to see them fail. Yes, they botched the Nexus angle. Yes, they've botched repeated opportunities to add even a little depth to Super Cena's stale character. Yes, they botched the Summer of Punk, and yes, they'll probably botch this (considering that it's leading to the return of Vince, I'm not even going to really try to make an argument that there's anything that can salvage this angle), but am I the only one who appreciates that they're trying to do something that isn't stale and doesn't end with Cena standing triumphantly over the heel of the month with his stupid little spinner belt?

It doesn't spin anymore. It hasn't for a while. Watch the show before you go making stupid comments like that.

It's still uglier than the results of your last STD screening

Give the WWE a little credit. I mean we bitched and bitched and bitched about the damn spinning belt. It doesn't spin. And yet we still call it the spinning belt. Sure it's still all blingy and stupid looking, but it doesn't spin.


People just wanna bitch no matter what.

Kinda like I'm doing here. You're either bitching, bitching about the bitching, bitching about the bitching about the bitching, etc etc etc.



EDIT:

[Edited on 10-5-2011 by williamssl]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Is Good517
Also, everyone who read my post and only took that away is missing my point. For the last six years, people have been complaining because WWE is too scared to try new things, and when they DO try new things everyone shits on them anyway. Granted, most of you guys are basically saying "IT'S GONNA FAIL" and based on their track record it's a fairly valid conclusion to jump to, but sometimes I can't help but feel like some of you guys want to see them fail. Yes, they botched the Nexus angle. Yes, they've botched repeated opportunities to add even a little depth to Super Cena's stale character. Yes, they botched the Summer of Punk, and yes, they'll probably botch this (considering that it's leading to the return of Vince, I'm not even going to really try to make an argument that there's anything that can salvage this angle), but am I the only one who appreciates that they're trying to do something that isn't stale and doesn't end with Cena standing triumphantly over the heel of the month with his stupid little spinner belt?

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quote:

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Originally posted by SeanSmythe
Im wondering how they are gonna explain Smackdown going on the air without a hitch, almost all that roster walked out. Are we gonna have HHH vs HHH with special guest ref/time keeper/announcer/color commentator HHH the entire 2 hours?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Flash
Do we expect too much from the WWE?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Is Good517

First of all, that was an awesome post and that kind of consistent quality from you is why you've got my nomination for poster of the year.

To answer your question, I dunno if we expect too much, but we (and I mean we in the broad IWC sense and not "we" as in everyone on this board specifically) demand that WWE cater to us exclusively and to hell with the casual fans. One of the problems with this is that the casual fans are typically the ones putting money into WWE, not us. Seriously, how many of you guys who have watched a PPV this year actually paid for it? How many of their DVDs have you bought? How many times have you bought a ticket and gone when they're in your town? Because here's the thing; they're going to listen to the paying customer, not the guys online who will spend three hours illegally watching a PPV they aren't willing to pay for and then have the audacity to bitch about what a waste of their time it was. They're going to listen (admittedly only to some degree) to the paying fan who goes to the arena and cheers what s/he likes and sits on his/her hands for what s/he doesn't like or doesn't care for. Yeah, once they get it into their head that they're getting someone over there's not really anything that can be done to stop them (ADR), but this is why Zack Ryder finally got his push: because the people in the arenas demanded it.

Which is really kind of deviating from your point. I think it's fair for Dev and Moose (who, in all fairness, has made a very noticeable effort to be a lot more constructive in his criticism recently) and others who aren't enjoying the product to say "hey, I'm not digging this". But I think a) it's equally fair for people who are enjoying it to do that and defend their position without being accused of being sheep, apologists, fanboys, or on Vince's payroll and b) to come to terms with the fact that not every match, angle, or segment is going to be in their wheelhouse.* Because WWE isn't trying to make the perfect show for a small group of fans, they're trying to make a mostly good show for everybody. And that attitude of "it didn't meet MY expectations" is where all of the bickering on this board begins- people aren't looking at the bigger picture, just what entertains them personally. And the crazy thing is, WWE seems to be one of the few entities in entertainment that gets treated this way by its fans. I've never heard anyone say "I'm canceling my subscription to Sports Illustrated because they've gone years without putting the Nebraska womens' volleyball team on the cover" or "That was such a shitty episode of How I Met Your Mother, I'm never watching ever again!"** Other than Heroes and LOST, I think WWE is the only thing I've ever seen where former fans who claim to not enjoy it anymore continue watching week in and week out in what appears to be nothing more than self-abuse, since they apparently hate it so much.

*I wish people would also stop looking at the Attitude Era with rose colored glasses, because there was just as much stuff we hated going on then as there is now- probably even more, because Russo had his fingers in so many pots back then. The biggest difference is that there was a midcard and the guys at the top were much stronger characters with more depth. But it wasn't this mythical land of unicorns and rainbows that we lapped up without complaint and begged for me. A lot of it was crap comparable to today's crap.

**HIMYM actually got away with a couple of entire seasons that were pretty terrible in comparison to the high standards set by the earlier seasons of the show, and it has rebounded pretty nicely.


TL;DR: It's fair to complain, but try to remember that WWE is trying to appeal to everybody. It's like being at a buffet: there are going to be entrees you like, there are going to be entrees you don't. If you hate catfish and they're serving catfish, try to enjoy the roast beef while you wait for them to bring out another dish you also like.

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I think it's unfair to say that people are only complaining because they want WWW to cater specifically to them or do Punk/Bryan Iron Man title matches every night.

Besides the subjective opinion of saying this angle is boring, people have made plenty of good points about why this angle is silly. And complaining that WWE has seemingly dropped their hottest angle in years with all this stuff isn't always a complaint that "Punk should always be champ!" so much as it's a complaint that the angle was cool, smart and seemed to be satisfying the iwc AND casual fans AND the fans in the arena AND the media.

And now, besides people complaining on the boards, WWE has dropped off the board. When was the last time Bill Simmons or some other major media person talked about WWE being interesting or a WWE superstar was asked to come on a national talk show (besides just pumping up a dvd movie)? Not since they started screwing with this angle with Nash and everything else.

I think both sides keep putting up strawman arguments like "you just love Punk" or saying idiotic things like "why watch the show if you'll complain about it?" No one is ever going to be clearly right in these purely subjective debates, but no reason to throw out all these erroneous arguments.

quote:

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Originally posted by theflammablemanimal

And now, besides people complaining on the boards, WWE has dropped off the board. When was the last time Bill Simmons or some other major media person talked about WWE

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quote:

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Originally posted by theflammablemanimal

I don't think they've made the place out of control enough to justify this angle. No one has been seriously hurt and nothing has happened that's never been done before. Refs get jumped and people get beat up in the back or after matches? So what? Happens all the time. There has been worse situations in the WWE (as early as last year) and none of the wrestlers seem to care, so that weakens this angle. It feels like they should have had much bigger things, like injuries, happen to justify this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by S Kid J E T S 48

quote:

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Originally posted by theflammablemanimal

And now, besides people complaining on the boards, WWE has dropped off the board. When was the last time Bill Simmons or some other major media person talked about WWE

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He asked to preview Hell in a Cell on air last Friday on PTI. That's a pretty decent mention.

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Originally posted by firewoman

I think that's the bigger problem with the story itself. If there had been...I dunno, cars hitting people, big ass brawls backstage, referees getting tazed, divas getting harassed....then yeah....but all the things they were bitching about I don't think have happened much in the PG13 era, save for the wonderfully done Bret Hart Car Incident.

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I think a lot of the problem is with the pacing. They make some things take forever and they never pay off: such as the mystery G.M., but they blow through storylines that should have taken a lot longer to complete--such as John Cena coming back so quickly when he was 'fired' last year, resigning Punk so quickly (although I do get why they did that) after he had just left the company, and apparently wrapping up the Triple H COO storyline only after a couple of months with him in charge. I don't know where it's going, but I also have the feeling that Vince will be back yet again, and it's too soon and no real reason for it. I still can't wait for the muppets though.

I think the thing is though is that those that are saying wait and see or find the good are just as willing to say that yeah, this falls short of MY expectations, or that it would have been preferable if _________ had happened instead...

Go back a year and look at CM Punk;
Indy/Internet darling who was an often times neglected best part of the show. Yeah he got a few pushes and belts here and there, but I think we could all agree that guy with tatoo's and piercings was probably capped at the upper mid card at best.

If I had've told you that a year from now he would be involved in one of the hottest angles in recent memory for a month or two, that he's be put pretty definitively over Cena, and getting to be centrally involved with the companies biggest angles (HHH COO, the Conspiracy), and gets to hang with some of the biggest legends of the business, I'm guessing most of us would be pretty psyched for, in in disbelief of any of that happening.

Was it as great as what it could have been? Absolutely not. I do thnk the WWE rushed on things a bit, and there have been a few misteps along the way that I think could have been handled better. (To go more broadly I personally think the Daniel Bryan treatment has been 10x worse than any of the Punk complaints... the guy wins MITB, calls his WM spot, and then... disappears? Even if DB loses that MITB leaving a guy to spin his wheels is not how you either build someone or make me believe in what you are selling me)

Failed expectations or not, a guy who was an upper-midcarder not too long ago is now the #3 guy in the company and is opening and main eventing virtually every show he's on. I tend to see the HHH win as a mid point in a longer story, but even if you wanted to say it was HHH burying him its still one of the biggest names in the business coming out of retirement to personally take out Punk, except he did it in such a way that Punk was also completely protected (what's he eat... 3 pedigree's?). Even the Nash stuff... which I will say I have had some problems with.. not so much with his presence, but that last minute pull out from his match with Punk felt really awkward and disjointed, but again... maybe bigger story? End of the day, Punk is a bigger star than he has ever been before, and even playing second fiddle to HHH he's probably having his second biggest feud of his career behind only his John Cena matches.

Punk showing up in ROH and all these other little feds with perhaps a disgraced John Cena chasing him in an effort to regain the WWE championship would have been really cool, and I personally think they could have let that play out a bit more...

But really, I'm a wrestling fan and outside of the boards and some history on guys like Punk, Bryan, and Bourne I've never watched a single ROH match in my life. I probably would never have even heard of ROH had it not been for OO. I'm assuming your average WWE fan probably feels about the same about ROH as they do if you told me you wanted to show me your family vacation pictures from your trip to Puerto Rico, or Munich, or Bologne... they're places on a map that I've heard of, but I don't know how much it would excite me to want to look at your pictures (or home video) week after week and listed to you tell me about what a great time you had there... Take me with you or tell me we're going to do something cool together tonight and I'm game, but my patience only goes so far for scrap books and grainy footage of darkened indy arena's.

So really... how long should the WWE have sat on one of their hottest angles in recent memory? How long should they have denied their paying fans of a guy and matches they all want to see? There's a balance, and the WWE doesn't always strike it right but in in getting it all wrong I do think they are trying, just maybe not trying to please me or my fellow OO'sters...

So the WWE does fall short of my expectations as well, and probably also every single person who falls on the wait and see side of the argument fence, but as I asked above; are we expecting too much from the WWE, and thus putting unfair expectations on what it IS, but instead judging it by what it ISN'T.

IE, Women would be far hotter if they glowed red whenever they were turned on by portly comic/wrestling geeks who work in insurance, but they don't and that sucks and is my right to bitch about it being a fan of hot women... But I'm not going to say that I'm done with women week in and week out and how I'm never going to obsessively watch them again... (aw crap, this just go weird...) simply because they don't glow red when hot to trot for my benefit... they just don't do that and there has to be a point where I can either enjoy them for what they are while longingly wishing, or go gay (even though I read somewhere that evolutionarily speaking our primate asses and cheeks did once glow red when arroused...so its more they don't do that anymore I guess... although the face cheeks and lips do swell when arroused... kinda like the WWE arguments i guess... they once did it, and occasionally still do, just not to the extent we would like)

This week and every week in the Raw thread:

Flash, I don't know what that last paragraph was, but to your main point. I can't imagine we're setting our expectations too high since most of us expect the worst.

The really surprising thing about the Punk angle was that everyone was excited and mostly talking about all the cool ways it can go, instead of the usual "well, this could be interesting but will probably suck" attitude. Even when it started going downhill, most people were willing to give it a chance.

I also get annoyed when you or others play the "what else could they do? Not have Punk on tv card?" We all understand the necessity of having Punk on tv and we all understand that him showing up in Japan or at ROH was a pipe-dream (that could only be fully realized in the OO fantasy draft), but that doesn't mean he had to come back, sign a contract and go back to normal. It's not a one-or-the-other proposition. Any monkey could have spent ten minutes to think of half-a-dozen ways to keep Punk relevant and on tv and even at the pay per views without him just coming back and signing a contract.

Unfortunately they didn't. Not really worth debating anymore but if others are going to keep trotting out the same arguments over and over...

Lol, yeah that last paragraphs was kind of out there now that I re-read it.

As to the rest... You're not wrong Flam', they did short cut and they did drop the ball by taking the easiest or laziest way out. My own expectations weren't met by what we got. In saying that, I don't think what we got, or continue to get is the steaming pile of horse shit that some people make an apperance each week on here and claim we got before they swear that this week was the final straw and they'll never watch again... until next week.

Maybe I just watch the show differently and that's why I'm able to dismiss it as 2 hours a week where I can park my brain and not think. When I watch Raw I'm usually working on something else at the computer or reading a book. If and when the big stuff comes up I'll pay closer attention. I also walked away for several years when I found it got to the point of actually offending me even at half attention.

I just find it a bit disheartening to come on here and read half the posts where people just say "its shit"... if its JUST shit, why watch it? If its not JUST shit (and I think the fact that people do keep coming back would suggest that they watch it because they do like it) then I'd be far more interested in hearing what someone did like about the show, or WHY they didn't like something, or heck what they would have liked to have seen done differently.

I don't always agree with all the other WWE appologists, but I do tend to find this side of the fence a bit more willing to talk about things in a more balanced fashion on average, and that's a shame because a lot of those on the other side that do routinely come on here and say "its shit" have shown themselves to be pretty intelligent people in their own right once you get them to tease out the source of their frustrations a bit more.

I have to agree about the Punk stuff getting rushed(and the HHH COO storyline at the moment) especially with that rumor for MSG and Survivor Series. Punk should be returning around this time full time and proclaiming to be the real champion. Even the storyline with HHH right now it would have been great to see Punk return now to create even more chaos.

I've been going through this thread and wondering why nobody has noted that Punk himself started declining in his mic work as the story progressed. They gave Punk every opportunity to at least carry the storyline with his mic work (the same mic work, incidentally, that made this the hottest story in wrestling) and he showed real rapid declines. Given the free reign he was given early in the storyline, I'm not sure that the decline can be attributed to the writers.

I'm as dissatisfied as many on the boards that he Cena/Punk story did not maintain its high level, but I'm also surprised that nobody has put some share of the blame on Punk.

[Edited on 10-7-2011 by atothej]

Maybe it declined because he no longer had a story that made sense. Everything he was saying about Vince made sense. Everything he said about Nash made sense. Once HHH got involved in the match, he suddenly had to start acting out of character.and building a match out of nothing. He had nothing logical to say, so his promos suffered.

quote:

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Originally posted by theflammablemanimal
Maybe it declined because he no longer had a story that made sense. Everything he was saying about Vince made sense. Everything he said about Nash made sense. Once HHH got involved in the match, he suddenly had to start acting out of character.and building a match out of nothing. He had nothing logical to say, so his promos suffered.

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No no no no no. Punk can do no wrong. WWE can.


If that's not the conclusion you're coming to, you're watching it wrong.

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When I was out earlier today the radio in the car was playing Avril Lavigne's sk8er boi. It was real good.

I think the problem with Punk is that he's stopped showing you how edgy he is, and has just settled for telling us. Best advice I ever got about how to dick over someone at a party is to tell them how funny they are in front of other people, because then they'll stop being funny and start subconciously thinking about trying to be funny. So in a lot of ways I wonder what happens to a CM Punk who's spent a lifetime on the outside looking in, and now suddenly finds himself hampered by his own success?

I think the whole "Pipe bomb" speech is the one that has done him in because he put a lable on himself, and unfortunately its also had the effect of allowing the WWE to do the same... I cringe whenever I hear the announce team constantly refer to his mic time as a potential pipe bomb, or that he's now billed as the controversial CM Punk, which has about the same affect as me telling you each and every week how cool I am... If I'm cool, I shouldn't have to keep reminding you.

Finally, and as others have stated, I don't think he's had as much to do these last few weeks, and I think that's partly a show structuring problem;

HHH has business with Punk and the whole show - so unless we want HHH in every single segment (I like the guy and even I'll admit they've been letting him dominate the show a little too much) they have to wind up combining the Punk/HHH stuff with the rest of the show, or at least constantly find ways to segue from one into the other so instead of Punk getting a chance to dominate a spot, he's almost structurally handcuffed into playing second fiddle so that the rest of the show can move along.

I'm hoping that going forward HHH opts to fire everyone who walked out, or at least take a hard line against them, as otherwise I think they did Punk a disservice in putting HHH over him when the whole COO title was on the line (that could have been used later after the walk out) - A hardline HHH dealing with everyone else will also hopefully allo Punk to at least temporarily seperate himself from the HHH story at least untnil WM starts winding up, and allow him to do some one on one stuff... be it revenge on Nash, feuding with a returning Miz and Truth for their attacks on him, or even going to a one on one with ADR for the title while Cena plays with Rock at Survivor Series.

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Originally posted by Flash
Best advice I ever got about how to dick over someone at a party is to tell them how funny they are in front of other people, because then they'll stop being funny and start subconciously thinking about trying to be funny.

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Noticeable that WWE are doing their best to establish Cena, Punk, Sheamus and Orton aren't part of Walkout Inc. There's your Survivor Series team with Rock to be added.

(Del Rio, Miz, Truth, Christian and Rhodes in opposition)