Recently a match during the Best of the Super Juniors Tournament in New Japan has garnered a lot of *ahem* attention after some gifs of the match made it stateside.

Some people hated it and their argument boiled down to "It's wrestling, not gymnastics." and "Where's the ring psychology? There's no story being told."

Some people loved it and their argument boiled down to "It's a different style most Americans aren't used to." and "That was pure athleticism on display."

I'm conflicted on the whole thing. I can see both sides. The one major criticism I have is that there were too many moves that should have been finishes that guys kicked out of or no-sold. Nevertheless, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't entertained.

I figured you guys are the best when it comes to HOT TAKEZ on wrestling, so the full match is linked down below.

Have at it, bOOardsters.

http://wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2016/0531/612248/new-japan-pro-wrestling-posts-full-controversial-ricochet-vs/

I just watched the match (which is now on YouTube and I also had some mixed feelings about it, although ultimately I was disappointed with the match.

There's no doubt there were a lot of cool acrobatic sequences going on here. I've been a fan of flippy shit ever since the hey day of WCW's cruiser weight division, but it wasn't clear to me why any of this was happening in this match. Perhaps this is a case where the context announcers can provide would have helped. As I was watching I kept trying to figure out what the story here was, and it never clicked for me.

Neither of them seemed very interested in winning the match until about the last 4 minutes. Ricochet was being sort of a heel, but not quite. And it wasn't quite like these were two long-time allies who were trying to one-up each other, since neither one was taunting or otherwise expressing self-satisfaction with getting the best of the other gut in a sequence. It just seemed like they were into laying out roughly equivalent sequences for the sake of showing off the (admittedly) really cool moves and counter-moves they'd come up with.

Two parts stood out in that regard. First, after that (again really cool) set of moves that ended with them striking a superhero pose, it only took a quick kick an da fore-arm shot for Osprey to suddenly be totally at the mercy of Ricochet for a series of corner moves. In fact, all of the transitions were of that sort with not a whole lot of consequences for it. Ricochet worked Ospery's back a bit, but it never impacted what the latter could do in the ring. Second, at the beginning of the go home section Ricochet took two kicks to the head in quick sequence and after a perfunctory kick out at two was back on his feet setting himself up for yet another attack of the ropes from Osprey. It made it seem like the kicks meant nothing, and made the feed into the move seem convoluted.

There was a lot of athleticism on display here, but somehow it felt more like it was in the register of a dance battle than a wrestling match in the context of a tournament that is worth winning. Somehow, it seemed more like a display of athletics than a competition or a fight, and while we all know that wrestling isn't really a fight it's still weird when the fight element gets so lost.

I can see why the purists are dismissive because that kind of defined the term "flippy shit". Very athletic and well choreographed but that was as far away from how compelling a good Ultimate-X or old-school WCW cruiserweight match could be. It had the flow but it just didn't have any heart to it.

That Osprey is a potty mouth.
Check the "pip pip cheerio mother fucker" at 11:35.

The crowd liked it. That was as loud as I've heard a Japanese audience.

You play to the room.

To me the only problem was around the 15 to 18 mark where they no-sold their own damage in a way that pulled me out of the match a bit, but other than that it was very enjoyable to watch. Really dug the finisher.

I liked that, a lot. Even though I'm a fan of the flippy-floppy, I can see flaws in the match.. The "restholds", while creative, were more like "look at this pose! Okay, now we release, and do the next one!" even more than some of the counters/reversals. There was no intent to cause 'submission' with most of them -- at least a kick to the head looks like it hurts (until you start no-selling it).

Pretty much with everybody else here. One one hand my inner Cornette said, "Motherfuck, this is wrestling, this ain't the Serk de Solay, goddamnit! Next you'll have fukken Joey Ryan pole vaulting into the ring on his dick and pirouette his way into this chop socky clusterfuck...". On the other hand, I could see a lot of cruisers integrating some of those moves into their moveset in betwixt some regular ol' dropkicks and restholds to mellow things out a bit.

Dunno, but Shinsuke vs. Zayn is my recent highwater mark for the flippitydippity-esque stuff that also integrates moves that look like they would actually hurt in the real world.

That match rocked and if it happened in a WWE ring in front of an amazed crowd you guys would be fawning over it.

Fuck whatever "story" you're trying to look for here. That was two awesome flippy dudes doing some of the best flippy shit the business has ever seen, and it ruled.

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Originally posted by CamstunPWG187
That match rocked and if it happened in a WWE ring in front of an amazed crowd you guys would be fawning over it.

Fuck whatever "story" you're trying to look for here. That was two awesome flippy dudes doing some of the best flippy shit the business has ever seen, and it ruled.

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Reminded me of Avatar - great visually speaking, but lacking in heart and depth.

The modified Brock Lock that was busted out of nowhere, and quickly abandoned actually kinda pissed me off.

I give this match 87 out of a 100 Jushin Thunder Ligers.

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Originally posted by CamstunPWG187
That match rocked and if it happened in a WWE ring in front of an amazed crowd you guys would be fawning over it.

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So why's this attracting so much controversy? Just general crusty vets being generally crusty vets? It's a style like anything else and that's about the best "flippy shit" match I've seen in a while.

I don't think there's really much controversy based upon the likes vs dislikes on YouTube... it's pretty well liked.

I think there's just a small but vocal group of fans that think it was good but not great, for things related to inconsistent selling, which in turn creates a kind of oddly told story...


I mean, at the 14:30 mark, dude hits a modified F-U onto the apron, and what does he get for this devastating move? Reverse Frankensteined on the outside like six seconds later. Calm down already with that shit. Basically it's a wonderfully executed match, but the layout of the match itself is "let's just do like all our moves in a row!"


edit - I mean really now, he takes a high level finishing move from a high level guy in Cena (fuck off, he's beyond over and the F-U has finished fucking everyone), modifies it to an apron spot, and it results in him getting hit with an even more insane move seconds later. If these guys wrote movies instead of matches, they would write Fast & Furious vs Transformers.

[Edited on 6-3-2016 by BBMN]

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Originally posted by The Hitcher
Just general crusty vets being generally crusty vets?

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Originally posted by BBMN
Fast & Furious vs Transformers.

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Originally posted by Count Zero

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Originally posted by BBMN
Fast & Furious vs Transformers.

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98 minutes of lens flares and explosions, co-starring The Rock and Shia LaBeouf????

[Edited on 6-2-2016 by Count Zero]

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Originally posted by CamstunPWG187

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Originally posted by The Hitcher
Just general crusty vets being generally crusty vets?

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Crusty vets have found out in recent years that they can still stay relevant with the IWC by having crusty vet mentality about highly-praised athletic matches.

I'm glad guys like Regal say fuck all and stand up for these kind of guys and the matches they have. Regal's one of the most scientific mat techs in the game and even he understands the purpose of these types of matches.

Shelton said something I liked, as well: "If everyone wrestled the same style of match, wrestling would die.", or something like that.

No heart? I say the caliber of wrestling they displayed mixed with how crisp and perfect everything looked showed PLENTY of that. I'm glad those two are so good at their craft that they can execute a match like that so flawlessly. THAT shows heart, and dedication, to their craft and love for the business. Ricochet has shown me numerous times that he can tell a "story" in there (his series with El Generico in PWG, for a perfect example), so I don't need to see him do that in every match. I know he's capable of doing it, already.

But why did there need to be a story in that match? Could there have been? Sure, but it's also a round robin-style tournament show, so aren't they just exhibitions? Pro wrestling is so subjective, and people need to understand these matches have their place on the card. The crowd was going apeshit for a Japanese crowd and they even chanted 'This is awesome', which is the first time I have heard that from the Japanese crowd. I say cheers to those two.

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Congratulations on taking what I wrote, imagining that I meant something other than what I wrote, and then responding to your imagination.

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Originally posted by CamstunPWG187
Congratulations on taking what I wrote, imagining that I meant something other than what I wrote, and then responding to your imagination.

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I still say Vader was right, and like BBMN said the non-selling of moves that would result in a pinfall in any other wrestling match was pretty atrocious. A lot of the no-sells were as dumb as Rock doing it with the Stone Cold Stunner or what HBK did during the match with Hogan. Athletic, yes. Talented, yes. Fun, yes. Something I want to see repeated on a regular basis on RAW, SD, or PPV's? No. Like all gymnastics or tumbling exhibitions, which is what that match really was, it's OK every once in a while but I have no need of it more often than that. Japanese fans are cool and all but I see no reason to believe that they're the be-all-end-all authority on what makes a match good than any other fan base in the history of Our Sport has ever been.

For me, I enjoy suspending disbelief for a bit and pretend wrestling is an actual fight.

When you take a reverse hurricanrana from the apron to the floor and then barely lay there before moving on to your next high spot, it ruins the illusion for me.

It's like having sex with a high end prostitute only for her to take a phone call from her pimp in the middle of her orgasm.

Sell the match like it's a real fight and you are trying to win and/or hurt your opponent. Sell the moves your opponent gives you as realistically as possible. Some of these guys need to go back and watch Magnum TA vs. Tully Blanchard to see how to tell a compelling story, hold the fans in the palm of your hand, AND make it look like they are fucking each other up.

It doesn't have to be either/or.

[Edited on 6-2-2016 by CCharger]

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Originally posted by CCharger
It's like having sex with a high end prostitute only for her to take a phone call from her pimp in the middle of her orgasm.
[Edited on 6-2-2016 by CCharger]

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And I don't want to come off as some super elitist smart fan that only loves a handful of matches. I know there's been some spotfests in the past that I would've said "THIS IS AWESOME" on the first viewing. But as I watch wrestling less and less, I appreciate the craft more and more. A match can be filled to the brim with flippy shit and highspots, but it at least has to make sense. Eating a finisher on the apron and being able to hit an even more brutal move seconds later is something that is reserved for the biggest beasts in the industry. Like Hogan hulking up and no selling anything that hit him. Or Lesnar just being the genetic freakshow. Or Taker being this undead zombie that won't stay down.

But it's not for some dude that is less than 6' and less than 200lbs. Just no.






Now if you will excuse me, I have to renew my subscription to AARP.

Yeah, but at the same time, consider the hardcore indy fans such as myself who have been following guys like Ricochet for nearly a decade in a plethora of promotions, and they aren't just "some guy under 6'0" to us. We have watched guys like him grow from being a sloppy flippy guy with potential to a guy we have seen completely define high-flying.

A small minority, but still.... To those fans in attendance in Japan, Ricochet hasn't just been "some guy" since 2010, and Ospreay has been there long enough to have made them realize that he's on the rise.

Not saying you're wrong, just saying that chances are, if you're watching that match, you probably know who Ricochet is and have heard whispers of Ospreay. Not everyone, but I'd be willing to bet that most people watching night 6 of a Japanese wrestling promotion's tourney has a hunch as to who they are.

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Yeah, but at the same time, consider the hardcore indy fans such as myself who have been following guys like Ricochet for nearly a decade in a plethora of promotions, and they aren't just "some guy under 6'0" to us. We have watched guys like him grow from being a sloppy flippy guy with potential to a guy we have seen completely define high-flying.

A small minority, but still.... To those fans in attendance in Japan, Ricochet hasn't just been "some guy" since 2010, and Ospreay has been there long enough to have made them realize that he's on the rise.

Not saying you're wrong, just saying that chances are, if you're watching that match, you probably know who Ricochet is and have heard whispers of Ospreay. Not everyone, but I'd be willing to bet that most people watching night 6 of a Japanese wrestling promotion's tourney has a hunch as to who they are.

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Originally posted by The Hitcher
Just as a counterpoint to the above: I had little to no idea who either of them were before I watched that match and still enjoyed it. Probably because it's different to what I'm used to.

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Originally posted by CamstunPWG187
Yeah, but at the same time, consider the hardcore indy fans such as myself who have been following guys like Ricochet for nearly a decade in a plethora of promotions, and they aren't just "some guy under 6'0" to us. We have watched guys like him grow from being a sloppy flippy guy with potential to a guy we have seen completely define high-flying.

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I bookmarked the link to eventually get to watch the match but I didn't realize it was only available til June 7th, so I lost my window. Anyone know where I can find that match (preferably streaming than torrent) for free?

^^^

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4dxp1b_ricochet-vs-will-ospreay-bosj-27-05-2016_sport