DKBroiler
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| posted on 6-25-2017 at 04:23 PM |
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Actual King of the Cruisers?
Despite Neville being awesome in his King of the Cruisers gimmick, we all know he's not. Finn Balor is. If the WWE actually had all of their
cruiserweights competing together, what do you think their actual internal pecking order would be?
1 - Balor
2 - Neville
3 - Enzo?
4 - Kalisto
5 - Aries
6 - Tozowa
7 - TJP
Would 2/3rds of the New Day qualify? Is Elmsworth above TJP? Gargano should be like 3rd, right? Am I wrong in thinking that 205 Live should just be
the Enzo and Finn hour?
Braun Strowman guy.
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Gobshite
The Great One 
Posts 3388
Registered 1-30-2004 Location Right here, in Birmingham, England!! Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 6-25-2017 at 05:09 PM |
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I don't see them ever referrring to Balor as a cruiserweight, so discussing him
In that category / ranking him number 1 is kind of pointless. Therefore, Neville is King.
[Edited on 6-25-2017 by Gobshite]
I have six invites I can crash out for membership to pwtorrents.net - if you want one, U2U me!
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DKBroiler
SpeciASSl CUMedian
Posts 1566
Registered 1-25-2008 Location One Inch Right of Philly on a Map Member Is Offline Mood: Old
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| posted on 6-25-2017 at 05:48 PM |
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Not eventually including Balor in the cruiserweight division would be unfathomably stupid.
Braun Strowman guy.
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Chris Is Good517
Best There Is Was or Ever Will Be 
Posts 12549
Registered 1-10-2002 Location Little Rock, AR Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 6-25-2017 at 07:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
Not eventually including Balor in the cruiserweight division would be unfathomably stupid.
But the division exists for the most part in a separate, segregated pocket universe and Finn is, as a former world champ, so many rungs above that
division that he shouldn't even acknowledge its existence.
I think there's a lot of talent on the roster that would benefit from being part of the CW division without it being seen as a "step down", so
to speak, like Enzo, maybe Aiden English, even Ellsworth, but until we see some integration of the division into the main shows, Balor would be seen
as both out of place and also a ridiculous division killer.
There are guys in the division I think would be believable competitors in the regular product (Tozawa, Swann, and especially Cedric Alexander and
Austin Aries would all be credible IC/US title contenders, just as Neville was once upon a time) but then you create a paradox where if they feed,
say, Noam Dar to Big Cass people are going to cry that they're burying the cruiserweighs and diminishing the credibility of the division, but if
they let Brian Kendrick get a win over a Kevin Owens, people are going to complain that there's no way that should have happened. So I think the
separation has been a good thing in that it has prevented that can of worms from spilling over and it protected a whole bunch of talent from being
squashed in the Braun Strowman build-up before we all fell in love with the guy, but it works against them in that it makes a whole bunch of talent
feel like an inconsequential sideshow and is robbing us of some potentially really interesting match-ups. I don't think it would be the worst
thing in the world if WWE started experimenting though with maybe some six-man tags with a guy from the CW division on each side, just to test which
way the wind is blowing, because you can always promote guys like Cedric or Aries or Neville if it feels right. It seemed like they were starting to
do that to some degree with Jack Gallagher with the backstage skits with New Day and by putting him into the Rumble match, and to some degree now with
the Tozawa/Titus angle, so maybe I should be patient and see what happens.
But to your original point: no, Finn gains nothing by associating with the division in its current standing. There's no way it would be looked
at as anything but a huge demotion.
Monday Night Flaw, a podcast about professional wrestling starring OO's own
Figure Foreskin as Andy the Smarmy Host and Chris Is Good517 as Cousin Balki.
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DKBroiler
SpeciASSl CUMedian
Posts 1566
Registered 1-25-2008 Location One Inch Right of Philly on a Map Member Is Offline Mood: Old
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| posted on 6-26-2017 at 03:26 PM |
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You know how sometimes a champ makes the title and sometimes a title makes a champ, well a post SummerSlam "demotion" for Balor to 205 Live might do
a ton for Neville long term in "making" the Cruisers. Presenting Balor as a guy who can credibly fight main eventers and win doesn't mean
that Neville couldn't be presented the same way.
Kalisto might even make less sense than Balor. What has he done to be above the division?
I have no issue with Cruisers fighting up in weight but for them to completely disregard a title each should want on top of higher aspirations is mind
bending and hurts Neville.
Braun Strowman guy.
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williamssl
Steers and Queers
Posts 7694
Registered 1-11-2004 Location Hippieville Member Is Offline Mood: Fuck USC
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| posted on 6-26-2017 at 03:52 PM |
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You were high when you started this thread. Admit it.
Don't Mess With Texas
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GodEatGod
Man of a Thousand Holds 
Posts 1289
Registered 1-14-2004 Location Monroe, LA Member Is Offline Mood: Weird
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| posted on 6-26-2017 at 04:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
Am I wrong in thinking that 205 Live should just be the Enzo and Finn hour?
Yes.
"It is an impressively arrogant move to conclude that just because you don't like something, it is empirically not good. I don't like
Chinese food, but I don't write articles trying to prove it doesn't exist." - Tina Fey
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janerd75
The Great One 
Posts 3879
Registered 1-28-2013 Member Is Offline Mood: Juan Trick Pony
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| posted on 6-26-2017 at 08:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
You know how sometimes a champ makes the title and sometimes a title makes a champ, well a post SummerSlam "demotion" for Balor to 205 Live might do
a ton for Neville long term in "making" the Cruisers. Presenting Balor as a guy who can credibly fight main eventers and win doesn't mean
that Neville couldn't be presented the same way.
Kalisto might even make less sense than Balor. What has he done to be above the division?
I have no issue with Cruisers fighting up in weight but for them to completely disregard a title each should want on top of higher aspirations is mind
bending and hurts Neville.
Agayn, I get Finn's talent and pedigree and this is more of a WWE continuity bungling than anything he's done, but why do Finn and Kalisto
get to play with the big boys and the rest of the cruisers don't? Assume he's a blank slate for most of the fans that didn't see all
the cool shit he accomplished overseas. What has he done in WWE to justify his position amongst giants? Sure, the injury was bad luck, but
them's the breaks in wrasslin'. Sure2, he had NXT time to grow and perfect The Demon character, but how well has that translated to the
main roster? So far he's Mr. Bayley as far as that's concerned. Shiiiiiiit, it's taken Tyler up 'til now with the Fashion
Police to get any traction and how long has it been since he was called up?
If anything I would think a program betwixt Neville and Balor would be utterly amazing and would truly cement the cruiser division to be as important
and consistently exciting as the Luchas and Malenko, Jericho, Eddie, and That Other Guy were in their heyday in WCW. Tiny guys can and should
absolutely break through (See: That YES! Chant Guy) but to my addled mind the presentation is all kinds of screwy when only two clearly itty bitty
guys are utterly separated from the guys they resemble the most who also happen to have a division made entirely for them.
In total fucking nerd terms, it's like this new 'Venom' film coming out that at best is only a one-way street where Spidey gets to
visit him but he's not a part of the MCU going the other way and at worst they're entirely different universes all together and not
connected at all. 
"Well, life's a bitch n' then you marry one. Alls you know now is you're goin' into the bar tonight to get just fuckin'
interplanetary." - Wayne (Letterkenny)
"This is the water and this is the well. Drink full and descend. The horse is the white of the eyes, dark within." The Woodsman
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DKBroiler
SpeciASSl CUMedian
Posts 1566
Registered 1-25-2008 Location One Inch Right of Philly on a Map Member Is Offline Mood: Old
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| posted on 6-26-2017 at 09:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by williamssl
You were high when you started this thread. Admit it.
Well ... yes ... but I'm high when I post 97% of my weekend posts anyway. 
Braun Strowman guy.
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DKBroiler
SpeciASSl CUMedian
Posts 1566
Registered 1-25-2008 Location One Inch Right of Philly on a Map Member Is Offline Mood: Old
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| posted on 6-26-2017 at 09:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by janerd75
quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
You know how sometimes a champ makes the title and sometimes a title makes a champ, well a post SummerSlam "demotion" for Balor to 205 Live might do
a ton for Neville long term in "making" the Cruisers. Presenting Balor as a guy who can credibly fight main eventers and win doesn't mean
that Neville couldn't be presented the same way.
Kalisto might even make less sense than Balor. What has he done to be above the division?
I have no issue with Cruisers fighting up in weight but for them to completely disregard a title each should want on top of higher aspirations is mind
bending and hurts Neville.
Agayn, I get Finn's talent and pedigree and this is more of a WWE continuity bungling than anything he's done, but why do Finn and Kalisto
get to play with the big boys and the rest of the cruisers don't? Assume he's a blank slate for most of the fans that didn't see all
the cool shit he accomplished overseas. What has he done in WWE to justify his position amongst giants? Sure, the injury was bad luck, but
them's the breaks in wrasslin'. Sure2, he had NXT time to grow and perfect The Demon character, but how well has that translated to the
main roster? So far he's Mr. Bayley as far as that's concerned. Shiiiiiiit, it's taken Tyler up 'til now with the Fashion
Police to get any traction and how long has it been since he was called up?
If anything I would think a program betwixt Neville and Balor would be utterly amazing and would truly cement the cruiser division to be as important
and consistently exciting as the Luchas and Malenko, Jericho, Eddie, and That Other Guy were in their heyday in WCW. Tiny guys can and should
absolutely break through (See: That YES! Chant Guy) but to my addled mind the presentation is all kinds of screwy when only two clearly itty bitty
guys are utterly separated from the guys they resemble the most who also happen to have a division made entirely for them.
In total fucking nerd terms, it's like this new 'Venom' film coming out that at best is only a one-way street where Spidey gets to
visit him but he's not a part of the MCU going the other way and at worst they're entirely different universes all together and not
connected at all.
Exactly Janerd!
The Kalisto thing really bugs the F out of me. I get Finn's higher aspirations but Kalisto? That's just odd. Personally I think that
The Cruiserweight Title should be looked at as almost the equal of the World Championships because it actually is a World Championship.
The cruiserweight champion should be the best pound for pound wrestler on the roster. Literally the only thing that should be keeping them from the
World Championships should be their size.
Braun Strowman guy.
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DKBroiler
SpeciASSl CUMedian
Posts 1566
Registered 1-25-2008 Location One Inch Right of Philly on a Map Member Is Offline Mood: Old
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| posted on 6-26-2017 at 09:38 PM |
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One more thing ... imagine for a second that Daniel Bryan was healthy and cleared. Of course he would go after one of the World Championships but
would it be out of place for him to decide that HE should be known as the "king of the cruiserweights"? I don't think it would be.
I actually see a lot of potential in the cruiserweights now that they have had a year to build a steady roster of solid people. What they need now is
an injection of main event level cruiserweights.
Neville is 1. That guy is money as hell right now. Aside from him then we gotta look into the area of the 6th or 7th most over cruiserweight to find
a challenger but sorry ... Rich Swann ain't it. Tozowa could be. TJP is probably as far down as you could go but no one is buying tickets for
TJP.
But ... Neville v Balor is a PPV main event. Neville v Kalisto is at least feud worthy. Neville v Enzo would (as much as many of you hate Enzo) a
feud that would draw a lot of eyeballs. If these guys got to mix it up ... while throwing guys like AA and TJP in when needed ... 205 Live and the
cruiserweight championship would be much more valuable than now.
Braun Strowman guy.
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denverpunk
The Rowdy One
Posts 2587
Registered 6-27-2007 Location Mile-Hi Member Is Offline Mood: Stoked
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| posted on 6-26-2017 at 09:56 PM |
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The problem being called the King of the Cruiserweights is that it's like being called the best hockey player from Chile. Sure, it's a
nice title, but why would a hockey player from Canada want it?
That's not a knock on the current WWE cruiserweight talent, which I think is pretty good, and could be great. It's just that the term
cruiserweight and what it means has been killed by WWE since the original tournament. It's got a bad stink to it, and Balor would have to be
crazy to spend time "making" the division when a) WWE doesn't really care about it, (b) Neville is already kind of doing that, and (c) his own
spot is not that secure right now.
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DKBroiler
SpeciASSl CUMedian
Posts 1566
Registered 1-25-2008 Location One Inch Right of Philly on a Map Member Is Offline Mood: Old
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| posted on 6-26-2017 at 10:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by denverpunk
The problem being called the King of the Cruiserweights is that it's like being called the best hockey player from Chile. Sure, it's a
nice title, but why would a hockey player from Canada want it?
That's not a knock on the current WWE cruiserweight talent, which I think is pretty good, and could be great. It's just that the term
cruiserweight and what it means has been killed by WWE since the original tournament. It's got a bad stink to it, and Balor would have to be
crazy to spend time "making" the division when a) WWE doesn't really care about it, (b) Neville is already kind of doing that, and (c) his own
spot is not that secure right now.
It's funny you say that. I've always viewed the IC Championship in EXACTLY that way. I mean you're essentially the champion of ...
what exactly?
Meanwhile the cruiserweight championship is a tangible thing. You're the baddest man in the world in your weight class. Maybe this is the
MMAing of me talking but I'm so used to weight classes being a thing that being the champion of one doesn't, as you put it, make you the
best hockey player from Chile. The IC belt totally does though.
Braun Strowman guy.
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GodEatGod
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1289
Registered 1-14-2004 Location Monroe, LA Member Is Offline Mood: Weird
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| posted on 6-27-2017 at 12:27 AM |
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For better or worse, the Cruiserweight is a lower midcard title. It will likely never main event a PPV. I don't think it's ever even main
evented RAW, to my knowledge. I'm opposed to Finn being in the cruiser division because I believe he's a main event level talent. If he
had started in the cruiser division and rose up above it, the way Jericho and Rey did in the previous generation, then I would have no problem with
it. But he's already been pushed above and beyond that and putting him in the Cruiserweight division would rightly be seen as a demotion, as a
loss of confidence, and one from which he might not return.
Hell, Austin Aries was a world champion and perennial contender in TNA - now that he's been a cruiser, does anyone here think he'll even
sniff the IC belt, much less the Universal?
That said, send Kalisto there already, he had his cup with the US title. I assume they've kept him out of it just so that he can make a big
splash when he joins.
"It is an impressively arrogant move to conclude that just because you don't like something, it is empirically not good. I don't like
Chinese food, but I don't write articles trying to prove it doesn't exist." - Tina Fey
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salmonjunkie
Best There Is Was or Ever Will Be 
Posts 11770
Registered 6-25-2002 Location Sunny Seattle, WA Member Is Offline Mood: Authoritized
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| posted on 6-27-2017 at 01:15 AM |
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One way I could see them make the CW Title credible is if the Cruiserweight Champion beat the Universal Champion in a match for the World
Championship. Something like that could be done with, say Neville vs Finn/Joe. I can't think of anyone currently on 205 Live that could pull
that off besides Neville right now. Maybe Aries if they build him back up, but (unpopular opinion here) I think Aries is overrated, anyway.
Anyway, I don't ever see that happening.
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Count Zero
The Rowdy One 
Posts 2204
Registered 1-29-2013 Location Canada East Member Is Offline Mood: Weeneedoo
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| posted on 6-27-2017 at 03:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
It's funny you say that. I've always viewed the IC Championship in EXACTLY that way. I mean you're essentially the champion of ...
what exactly?
The continents! ALL OF THE CONTINENTS!
Also, isn't Sin Cara a cruiser? If so, it's funny that the "bigger" of the Lucha Dragons is working 205Live, and the smaller one is
flippyflopping all over I Forget Which Show He's On Now, fighting BRAAAGGGHHH in dumpster matches.
"It's a WWE tradition, to do something un-right." --Paddlefoot
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DKBroiler
SpeciASSl CUMedian
Posts 1566
Registered 1-25-2008 Location One Inch Right of Philly on a Map Member Is Offline Mood: Old
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| posted on 6-27-2017 at 03:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Count Zero
quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
It's funny you say that. I've always viewed the IC Championship in EXACTLY that way. I mean you're essentially the champion of ...
what exactly?
The continents! ALL OF THE CONTINENTS!
Also, isn't Sin Cara a cruiser? If so, it's funny that the "bigger" of the Lucha Dragons is working 205Live, and the smaller one is
flippyflopping all over I Forget Which Show He's On Now, fighting BRAAAGGGHHH in dumpster matches.
Is it all of the continents, just South America, or a hemispheric championship? I'm the champion of my kitchen, but that falls into the United
States, the North American continent and The Universe. Brock Lesnar is not the champion of my kitchen damnit!
Braun Strowman guy.
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Count Zero
The Rowdy One
Posts 2204
Registered 1-29-2013 Location Canada East Member Is Offline Mood: Weeneedoo
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| posted on 6-27-2017 at 04:11 PM |
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Your example is a good one, except for one flaw: Bork Lazor is champion of whatever Bork Lazor wants to be champion of. But yeah, I get the degree
of granularity you mean. I think. If that's what "granularity" properly means. 
The IC Belt also applies to Antarctica, I think. It might be the only wrestling title that does?
"It's a WWE tradition, to do something un-right." --Paddlefoot
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DKBroiler
SpeciASSl CUMedian
Posts 1566
Registered 1-25-2008 Location One Inch Right of Philly on a Map Member Is Offline Mood: Old
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| posted on 6-27-2017 at 04:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Count Zero
Your example is a good one, except for one flaw: Bork Lazor is champion of whatever Bork Lazor wants to be champion of. But yeah, I get the degree
of granularity you mean. I think. If that's what "granularity" properly means.
The IC Belt also applies to Antarctica, I think. It might be the only wrestling title that does?
Good point on Brock and my kitchen. I could probably fend off The Miz or KO long enough to retain my kitchen championship through nefarious tactics
but if Brock wants my Keurig he can have it. Some battles can't be won.
Braun Strowman guy.
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First 9
The Rowdy One
Posts 2421
Registered 1-22-2013 Member Is Offline Mood: Doing the Emma Dance
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| posted on 6-27-2017 at 09:15 PM |
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My Neville fanboyism might be showing here but at this point feuding with him isn't that far off from going against Miz and the IC Title. Miz
has star power and aura but Neville has months of dominant performances and looking untouchable.
Balor having a short program against him would be a lot better that what he's doing with Elias Sampson and you don't need to have Balor
win the Title and oficially make him a part of the division. They fight a few times, they look like equals, once it's for the gold Bray Wyatt or
whoever pulls Balor back into the Main Event picture and Neville doesn't lose his luster.
It could be like when The Brothers of Destruction found themselves in the tag title chase or Taker bumped heads with midcard Champions.
[Edited on 6-27-2017 by First 9]
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Flash
The Great One
Posts 3412
Registered 4-22-2005 Location Ontario, Canada Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 6-28-2017 at 05:47 AM |
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I think you should keep the guys relatively separate, and that includes Balor as I think he's already been established as "above" that
division.
In saying that, I think you should occasionally mix the odd 205 guy into matches with the rest of the roster, but mostly lower card guys, or the odd
one guy out of an established tag team. You could occasionally build up a mini-feud- something over the span of one or two Raw where a Neville takes
on the IC champ or something like that. I think once you establish that guys are separate- and that stuff like weight and strength do make a
difference it could let you tell some stories... speed versus size, a good showing by one guy, or that they can beat some lower card guys... this
would allow you to tell some actual stories, and build up some guys for elevation to the upper card... it would also allow you then to tell a story
where a guy like Balor can get mixed into a feud with a guy like Neville; at which point if you do put the 205 belt on Finn there is a story behind
it, and a kind of meeting in the middle where Finn can elevate the division, Neville can move onto other things, and you avoid it being hey-
you're quick, and smallish... you two should fight!
I think the bonus of doing things this way is that you avoid casting anyone as a pure jobber because you are building it around the different styles
instead- it let's you mix in some wins, makes transitioning up and down the card a bit easier, and lets you build some new stars while giving
you a strong under card. Should Cena face TJ Perkins (or whomever).... no, but Strowman squashing him won't hurt him because Strowman has been
built as a different thing- Perkins could then get his heat back with a good showing against a Miz, or a Rollins (win or lose)
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