Quentil
Showstopper 
Posts 743
Registered 5-13-2003 Location Saratoga Springs, NY Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 4-10-2017 at 02:58 PM |
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NY State Budget - Free College For All New Yorkers!
So most people (including most NYkers probably) don't realize that NY State house and senate has sort of its own "Freedom Caucus" in the form
of a bunch of Democrats that always vote with the GOP. Couple that with a Democrat governor who is often openly mocked by his own party for being too
centrist, and obviously (much like in the federal government), partisanship prevent anything from be....
Wait. Free college education for all Nykers making less than 125k a year? Billions for water and transportation infrastructure? Is this what happens
when people hate each other ideologically and yet still manage to do their jobs? I wonder how many hookers paid for with tax dollars it took to get
everyone to sign on. No matter, hooker money well spent, I say!
http://www.ctpost.com/news/education/article/NY-set-to-make-state-college-tuition-free-for-11061155.php?cmpid=fb-desktop
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anglefan85
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1328
Registered 12-6-2005 Location Long Island, New York Member Is Offline Mood: Relaxed
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| posted on 4-10-2017 at 07:27 PM |
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As a New Yorker who's currently sitting in a student lounge of a New York university, I'm cool with this news.
The WWE: Where no one wins, unless you like Cena, in which case you are a sad little fanboy who will never get laid, but we are happy to take your
money away-Moosehead Jack
"She is an estrogen molotov cocktail. It'd be in your best interest not to piss her off."- My thoughts on Firewoman
"Kurt Angle is like a living vortex of the surreal. On the off chance he's not doing, saying or thinking crazy things, people connected to him
act crazy by association, caught in the gravitational pull of his insanity."- Ringout from FAN Forums
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dxlevy72
Creepy Little Bastard
Posts 56
Registered 1-16-2013 Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 4-11-2017 at 04:27 PM |
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It's not free college--it's free tuition (as long as you meet the income qualification, and as long as the student continues to make
adequate progress, etc.). Note that these days tuition is the smallest part of the cost of attendance. At many campuses, even when tuition is in the
$6,000 range, total cost of attendance is in the $20,000 to $25,000 range.
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Quentil
Showstopper
Posts 743
Registered 5-13-2003 Location Saratoga Springs, NY Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 4-11-2017 at 08:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by dxlevy72
It's not free college--it's free tuition (as long as you meet the income qualification, and as long as the student continues to make
adequate progress, etc.). Note that these days tuition is the smallest part of the cost of attendance. At many campuses, even when tuition is in the
$6,000 range, total cost of attendance is in the $20,000 to $25,000 range.
That's true, although you're putting an unneeded negative slant on things and your conclusion that tuition is the smallest part of the
overall bill is wrong. Let's delve deeper into your comments:
All grants are based on income qualification, and this one is 125k or less, which is a pretty high amount. Seriously, if your parents/you are making
more than that, you probably don't need financial help going to a state school. This program is meant to help the majority of the middle class
and all of the poor, after all. Still, you are correct. It's not entirely free. The upper middle class and rich still are expected to pay.
As far as the need for adequate progress to qualify, that's a common thing as well. Almost every grant and/or scholarship I got in my times in
college had such things attached to keep getting them. So it's not exactly a new thing. Still, you are correct in that you need to actually
pass your classes and graduate in a reasonable amount of time to get the benefits of this program. But seriously, that's common sense...
Also, you have to agree to live and work in NY State for as long as you got the free tuition. That one is a bit more iffy in how it'll be
accepted, I think. But yeah.
So you are right that there's other costs involved that aren't covered here.
Tuition isn't the smallest part of the cost. It's often largest for NY state schools, and always second in percentage after that. I
recently went back to college, in a NY State school. So I have several years of statements proving my point on this. Tuition often costs more than
housing, and always is more than food and books combined at NY Cuny/Suny schools.
If you live on campus, tuition might be smaller than housing. But even that's not always the case. Tuition at SUNY Plattsburgh, for instance,
is ~$8100 a semester. Housing is $3750. a full food program is $2,200. Books and various student fees are about $1000. So this program covers
about half the costs of going to this school, not counting other aid.
A school like SUNY Cobleskill charges ~$6500 per semester. Housing costs are $12,000. Obviously, the new program would help a student here less.
Looking at Suny Empire State College, the tuition per semester is about $3500. Other costs combined are about $1000. Suny Adirondack is ~$2100 a
semester, with other costs being a similar ~1,000. Neither offer housing. So in these cases, tuition is easily the biggest part of the overall
costs.
To be fair, living off-campus is a lot cheaper per semester, and most people do that after the first year or two anyhow.
Tuition is always higher than meal plans, books, and student fees, and is sometimes higher than housing costs on campus. Usually, off-campus living
will be less than on-campus. This refutes your claim that "... tuition is the smallest part of the cost of attendance" pretty easily.
ETA: corrected a mistaken belief on my part.
[Edited on 4-11-2017 by Quentil]
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blazeofglory
And I am AWESOME 
Posts 140
Registered 4-30-2008 Member Is Offline Mood: Legendary
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| posted on 4-11-2017 at 09:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Quentil
Remember, Pell grants and TAP grants will apply to the housing cost first, hopefully covering it all. To be fair, living off-campus is a lot cheaper
per semester, and most people do that after the first year or two anyhow.
I am a SUNY Community College employee. Our understanding is that according to the wording of the bill, the TAP and PELL need to be used to pay for
the TUITION first, before any of it can be applied to housing expenses. And TAP is ONLY applicable to tuition and cannot be used for any other costs,
period.
It is only after all of these grants are applied to the tuition that the Excelsior scholarship will pay any remaining tuition, and only tuition. All
other costs, particularly housing and books and food and whatnot will not be covered and will be up to the student to pay for. If they have any PELL
left over (or any other scholarships/grants), they could use the remaining funds to help pay their remaining costs, but the logistics would indicate
that if they have any PELL leftover, it's because it already fully covered the cost of the tuition and thus they would have no need for the
Excelsior Scholarship anyway.
This program will have very little bearing on low income students who already have their tuition covered by PELL and TAP. This will, however, have a
distinct impact on those middle to upper-middle class students who do not qualify for PELL and/or TAP. And obviously the overall cost of attending
college is going to be less if you commute to the school rather than living on premises.
We have had students come in already asking for their free tuition. When we point out to them that they already get free tuition because they have
TAP and PELL covering the entire cost of their education, they are quite disappointed.
Screw you guys, I'm going home.
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Quentil
Showstopper
Posts 743
Registered 5-13-2003 Location Saratoga Springs, NY Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 4-12-2017 at 12:14 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Quentil
Remember, Pell grants and TAP grants will apply to the housing cost first, hopefully covering it all. To be fair, living off-campus is a lot cheaper
per semester, and most people do that after the first year or two anyhow.
quote:
I am a SUNY Community College employee. Our understanding is that according to the wording of the bill, the TAP and PELL need to be used to pay for
the TUITION first, before any of it can be applied to housing expenses. And TAP is ONLY applicable to tuition and cannot be used for any other costs,
period.
Yeah, I meant to actually edit this part after further reading. I came back to do just that, but someone had already answered. You are correct.
Other aid will be applied first, although for a community college student who is poor, that aid will likely cover everything, which you actually say
here:
quote:
It is only after all of these grants are applied to the tuition that the Excelsior scholarship will pay any remaining tuition, and only tuition. All
other costs, particularly housing and books and food and whatnot will not be covered and will be up to the student to pay for. If they have any PELL
left over (or any other scholarships/grants), they could use the remaining funds to help pay their remaining costs, but the logistics would indicate
that if they have any PELL leftover, it's because it already fully covered the cost of the tuition and thus they would have no need for the
Excelsior Scholarship anyway.
This program will have very little bearing on low income students who already have their tuition covered by PELL and TAP. This will, however, have a
distinct impact on those middle to upper-middle class students who do not qualify for PELL and/or TAP. And obviously the overall cost of attending
college is going to be less if you commute to the school rather than living on premises.
Yes, I made that last point already. Some folks don't seem to get that, though.
quote:
We have had students come in already asking for their free tuition. When we point out to them that they already get free tuition because they have
TAP and PELL covering the entire cost of their education, they are quite disappointed.
Well, then the program will mostly be used by the middle class, as the poor already get a free education it seems. I'm okay with that. As far
as "upper middle class" goes, what salary do you consider that to be?
[Edited on 4-11-2017 by Quentil]
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dxlevy72
Creepy Little Bastard
Posts 56
Registered 1-16-2013 Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 4-12-2017 at 03:51 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Quentil
Tuition isn't the smallest part of the cost. It's often largest for NY state schools, and always second in percentage after that. I
recently went back to college, in a NY State school. So I have several years of statements proving my point on this. Tuition often costs more than
housing, and always is more than food and books combined at NY Cuny/Suny schools.
If you live on campus, tuition might be smaller than housing. But even that's not always the case. Tuition at SUNY Plattsburgh, for instance,
is ~$8100 a semester. Housing is $3750. a full food program is $2,200. Books and various student fees are about $1000. So this program covers
about half the costs of going to this school, not counting other aid.
A school like SUNY Cobleskill charges ~$6500 per semester. Housing costs are $12,000. Obviously, the new program would help a student here less.
Tuition is always higher than meal plans, books, and student fees, and is sometimes higher than housing costs on campus. Usually, off-campus living
will be less than on-campus. This refutes your claim that "... tuition is the smallest part of the cost of attendance" pretty easily.
[Edited on 4-11-2017 by Quentil]
Yes, I overstated my point. But to clarify:
(1) You're simply wrong about at least some of these numbers. Full-time tuition at SUNY Plattsburgh is a bit over $3200/semester. In fact, in
looking at current fees at a sample of the 4-year comprehensive colleges (in addition to Plattsburgh, I looked at Cobleskill, Oneonta, and Geneseo),
it appears that tuition is exactly the same at each campus: $3,235/semester, or $6,470/year.
(2) Although bills will separate housing cost and meal plan cost, for students who live on campus the policy is that they must also purchase a meal
plan--hence the fairly common reference to "room and board" (as if they're a single item). Looking again at a sample of the 4-year
comprehensive colleges, costs here are significantly higher than tuition: $12,264 at Geneseo, $12,386 at Oneonta, $12,836 at Cobleskill, and $12,150
at Plattsburgh.
In any event, my point is that the rhetoric of "free college" is deceptive. This simply ain't that.
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Quentil
Showstopper
Posts 743
Registered 5-13-2003 Location Saratoga Springs, NY Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 4-12-2017 at 04:15 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by dxlevy72
Tuition is always higher than meal plans, books, and student fees, and is sometimes higher than housing costs on campus. Usually, off-campus living
will be less than on-campus. This refutes your claim that "... tuition is the smallest part of the cost of attendance" pretty easily.
[Edited on 4-11-2017 by Quentil]
quote:
Yes, I overstated my point. But to clarify:
Alternative facts?
quote:
(1) You're simply wrong about at least some of these numbers. Full-time tuition at SUNY Plattsburgh is a bit over $3200/semester. In fact, in
looking at current fees at a sample of the 4-year comprehensive colleges (in addition to Plattsburgh, I looked at Cobleskill, Oneonta, and Geneseo),
it appears that tuition is exactly the same at each campus: $3,235/semester, or $6,470/year.
Seems like I was looking at the international costs for Plattsburgh. And for Cobleskill, I looked at the year cost. I apologize. I was mistaken due
to shoddy info gathering on my part.
I used these as sources. All are from the college sites themselves, so I assume they are correct:
http://web.plattsburgh.edu/admissions/international/costs.php
http://www.sunyacc.edu/admissions-cost/tuition-fees
https://www.esc.edu/student-accounts/tuition-fees/undergrad-tuitionfees/
http://www.collegecalc.org/colleges/new-york/suny-college-of-agriculture-and-technology-at-cobleskill/
quote:
(2) Although bills will separate housing cost and meal plan cost, for students who live on campus the policy is that they must also purchase a meal
plan--hence the fairly common reference to "room and board" (as if they're a single item). Looking again at a sample of the 4-year
comprehensive colleges, costs here are significantly higher than tuition: $12,264 at Geneseo, $12,386 at Oneonta, $12,836 at Cobleskill, and $12,150
at Plattsburgh.
In any event, my point is that the rhetoric of "free college" is deceptive. This simply ain't that.
I never had to have a meal plan with my housing when I went to NY State schools and had housing. So yeah, I dunno if that's a statewide thing
or a single school thing. Or something they implemented after I left school. Because I definitely didn't have one for a couple semesters, and
then had a mid-tier plan (I think it was 14 meals a week) for another semester. They were always two distinct costs and items on the bill.
And your point is valid, just a bit off in the numbers themselves in some ways. But so were mine, as I used the wrong numbers for for a couple of my
points. And that makes me a fucking idiot. I'll amend my original statement as it's obviously incorrect. Although for the most part, my
numbers and ideas are valid in dismissing your idea that tuition is "the smallest part of college costs." Because it isn't. Not by a long
shot.
I think, when you couple the new program with existing aid, it'll mean free college for a lot more students. It's a big step forward.
For middle-class kids especially. And very much so for two year programs where the students are living at home still, and thus 90% of their costs are
the tuition itself, with only some small fees and book costs aside from it.
I only was technically required to live on campus for my Freshman year. It cost a lot less once I moved into a place with some other people. I
honestly don't recall a single person that actually lived on campus all four years of school. Most bolted after their sophomore year or
earlier. So for those folks, tuition was by far their highest cost.
[Edited on 4-12-2017 by Quentil]
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OOMike
The Great One
Posts 3692
Registered 1-3-2002 Location Columbus, OH Member Is Offline Mood: same ol same ol
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| posted on 4-12-2017 at 12:35 PM |
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You all do realize that not everyone who goes to college lives on campus, I would have attended SUNY New Paltz if I could have afforded it and lived
at home, this would have allowed me to get my 4 year degree about 15 years earlier.
2017 where Nazis are defended and being against Fascism is a bad thing.
Prejudices are rarely overcome by argument; not being founded in reason they cannot be destroyed by logic � Tryon Edwards
Never let the facts interfere with a good rant.
The only OO columnist that has never written a column.
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dxlevy72
Creepy Little Bastard
Posts 56
Registered 1-16-2013 Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 4-12-2017 at 02:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by OOMike
You all do realize that not everyone who goes to college lives on campus, I would have attended SUNY New Paltz if I could have afforded it and lived
at home, this would have allowed me to get my 4 year degree about 15 years earlier.
Yes, not everyone who goes to college lives on campus. However, within the SUNY system--and especially at the 4-year comprehensive colleges--a sizable
portion of the student population does. Thus, when cost of attendance is over $20,000 per year, and tuition is only $6,500 or so of it, the Excelsior
Scholarship will not make college free. It won't even be close.
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blazeofglory
And I am AWESOME
Posts 140
Registered 4-30-2008 Member Is Offline Mood: Legendary
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| posted on 4-12-2017 at 02:43 PM |
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Without quoting everything - to answer Quentil's question about what I consider to be upper middle class - I first have to say that I was
getting my information from some of the literature that's been presented to us, and it used the term "middle and upper middle class" so
that's where that came from.
Wikipedia's article says that upper middle class is usually families making over $100,000. I personally think that's a fair bit low, but
going by Wikipedia's measurement, the upper middle class that benefits from the Excelsior Scholarship will be those families making between
$100,000 and $125,000 when the salary cap gets to its maximum in 2019.
And to OOMike - Your comment about how long it took to get your degree reminded me of this absolute gem:
https://youtu.be/UOsQ2epsI2M
Edited because I can't figure out how to embed a youtube video.
[Edited on 4-12-2017 by blazeofglory]
Screw you guys, I'm going home.
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OOMike
The Great One
Posts 3692
Registered 1-3-2002 Location Columbus, OH Member Is Offline Mood: same ol same ol
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| posted on 4-12-2017 at 02:50 PM |
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Just looking at five of the schools (New Paltz, Oswego, Plattsburgh, Cortland, Binghampton) it is only around 50% live on campus.
Is it sizable portion? Yes. Does this mean that potentially 200,000 families will get majority of their college costs reduced? Yes. Will the other
200,000 families potentially see their college bill reduced? Yes.
How is this a bad thing?
ETA:
quote:
And to OOMike - Your comment about how long it took to get your degree reminded me of this absolute gem:
https://youtu.be/UOsQ2epsI2M
Nice, but my time was due to not going to school because of the cost, not because I am Chris Farley.
[Edited on 4-12-2017 by OOMike]
2017 where Nazis are defended and being against Fascism is a bad thing.
Prejudices are rarely overcome by argument; not being founded in reason they cannot be destroyed by logic � Tryon Edwards
Never let the facts interfere with a good rant.
The only OO columnist that has never written a column.
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blazeofglory
And I am AWESOME
Posts 140
Registered 4-30-2008 Member Is Offline Mood: Legendary
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| posted on 4-12-2017 at 03:23 PM |
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I don't think anyone is really calling it a bad thing. I think the problem is that it's being billed as "free college" when it's
clearly not free, particularly for anyone choosing to live on campus. There is now going to be a large amount of people who don't understand
what it is that they're really getting with this program, they just heard "free college", and will be shocked when they learn they still have
to pay over $12K/year to go to "free college".
Had the Excelsior Scholarship provided free tuition BEFORE exhausting the student's other grants, then this would be much more helpful. Leaving
PELL (which is a maximum of just under $6000/year) to help reduce or eliminate the costs of housing/books/food/etc would go a lot further in reducing
college debt for those living at a 4 year school.
Screw you guys, I'm going home.
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Quentil
Showstopper
Posts 743
Registered 5-13-2003 Location Saratoga Springs, NY Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 4-12-2017 at 04:34 PM |
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@Blazeofglory: I guess $125k is about right for the top-tier "upper middle class." Wikipedia seems to put 100k as the base amount (top 15%), and
>118k as the top 10%. I'm actually surprised the program goes up to 125k. It really does make it help out a lot more students. I imagine it
would also depend on cost of living in the area you are in, as well. I know upstate NY and downstate NY have very different ideas on what is
considered expensive. Thanks for the information!
quote:
Originally posted by blazeofglory
I don't think anyone is really calling it a bad thing. I think the problem is that it's being billed as "free college" when it's
clearly not free, particularly for anyone choosing to live on campus. There is now going to be a large amount of people who don't understand
what it is that they're really getting with this program, they just heard "free college", and will be shocked when they learn they still have
to pay over $12K/year to go to "free college".
It's still "nearly free" college for a huge number of students.
Again, who actually lives on campus for four years? Have any of you, honestly? My own NY State experience had pretty much freshmen and some
sophomores living on campus. Juniors and seniors mostly lived off-campus. Admittedly, I'm sure some students do live on campus their entire
academic career. It's just not the overwhelming majority that seems to be implied by some. So for at least two out of a four year program,
housing and meal plans don't usually apply to most students. Leaving tuition as 90% of their college costs. Well, maybe 85% once you factor in
ramen and beer. 
A few of you keep saying "comprehensive four year colleges" as if that's the only thing people go to college for. For folks living at home or
doing the roommate route who going for an associates degree in one of the many two-year programs SUNY offers, this will essentially cover their
college costs, outside of books and minor fees. Heck, the same really is true for four year programs as well, so long as there isn't a
requirement to live on-campus.
quote:
Had the Excelsior Scholarship provided free tuition BEFORE exhausting the student's other grants, then this would be much more helpful. Leaving
PELL (which is a maximum of just under $6000/year) to help reduce or eliminate the costs of housing/books/food/etc would go a lot further in reducing
college debt for those living at a 4 year school.
Yes, it would. And I agree that's how it should have been structured, and it surprises me that it wasn't put together that way.
I'd wager it was due to compromise so it would pass.
That said, you are again just using the one example of "going to school for four years and living on campus the entire time." That's one
example of how people go to college, but it's most certainly not the only one. Or even a majority one. A google search brings up: "According
to The College Board, 40 percent of full-time college students at public universities live on-campus....The remainder of students live off-campus or
with their parents." That fits generally with my thought that most people live on campus for only a couple years, if at all.
This next bit is just my opinion and it might irk some folks into knee- jerk defense mechanisms. Hence the disclaimer.
Students are still responsible for their planning of an education. No offense, but that's kind of the bad planning result on the
student's part if they are in huge debt because they went this route of four years of campus housing. I'd suggest that if money were that
big of an issue, they should have looked at off-campus options like most others tend to in order to save money, as well as using work study or other
employment to help defer costs. You keep saying "it costs 12k a year to live on campus." Well, that six months or so of school a year would only
cost a few thousand with an apartment and a roommate or two. Easily manageable with a part-time job and other school aid. Thus, again, making
tuition the biggest part of the college expense.
So yeah, it's not "free college for everyone." But it IS "mostly free college for most people." It doesn't hurt to have students be
expected to pay a bit of their way. It builds skills that books don't, and is part of the college experience as much as anything else.
Anyhow, this conversation has taught me a bit more about the subject, so I thank you all.
[Edited on 4-13-2017 by Quentil]
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