theflammablemanimal
Man of a Thousand Holds 
Posts 1410
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| posted on 2-18-2010 at 05:37 PM |
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What do you mean? Giants fans are the only ones who realize that Eli stinks. In week 6, everyone else was debating if they'd take him over
Peyton.
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DevilSoprano
The Rowdy One
Posts 2692
Registered 11-16-2002 Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 2-18-2010 at 06:22 PM |
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God, I fucking hate Eli.
Giants fan, by the way.
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Columbo
Posts 389
Registered 11-2-2004 Location Jersey Member Is Offline Mood: purple
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| posted on 2-18-2010 at 06:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by theflammablemanimal
What do you mean? Giants fans are the only ones who realize that Eli stinks. In week 6, everyone else was debating if they'd take him over
Peyton.
Hey man I'm an optimist I like to pretend Eli doesn't suck, and sometimes I can even convince myself that he's good.
Narrator: Tobias listens to a day's worth of his own words, to see what Michael was referring to...
Tobias F�nke: [on tape] ... even if it means me taking a chubby, I will suck it up.
Tobias F�nke: Nothing wrong with that.
Tobias F�nke: [on tape] Oh, I've been in the film business for a while, but I just can't seem to get one in the can.
Tobias F�nke: It's out of context.
Tobias F�nke: [on tape] I wouldn't mind kissing that man between the cheeks.
Narrator: ...and he realized there is something distinct about the way he speaks.
Tobias F�nke: Tobias, you blowhard.
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DKBroiler
SpeciASSl CUMedian 
Posts 301
Registered 1-25-2008 Location Exit 8 off Rt 42, New Jersey Member Is Offline Mood: Skip Baylessish
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| posted on 2-18-2010 at 07:43 PM |
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Funny enough, I wanted to put Eli in my original comparison but as a Giants fan I felt bad even bring it up. With that said, dude won my squad a
Super Bowl so he can be our QB till he is 45 and I wouldn't complain once. Give me Eli over McNabb any day of the week. Also, for all of the
haters Eli is right around the 10th best QB in the league and isn't nearly as bad as most people seem to think and does continue to get better
each season.
After Brees, Brady, Peyton, Big Ben and MAYBE Phillip Rivers... Eli is as good as anyone else. Rivers, McNabb, Romo, Schaub, Rodgers, and Romo have
never won anything. And before anyone says, "Well Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl", just remember that Eli has 5 straight 3000+ yard, 20+ TD seasons
and is coming off his first 4000 yard effort.
By the way... I'd like to point out that it took less then 3 pages of posts for us to all forget about NXT.
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DevilSoprano
The Rowdy One
Posts 2692
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| posted on 2-18-2010 at 07:59 PM |
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I'm a Giants fan. Eli is lucky to sniff the top half of qb's in the league.
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DKBroiler
SpeciASSl CUMedian
Posts 301
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| posted on 2-18-2010 at 09:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DevilSoprano
I'm a Giants fan. Eli is lucky to sniff the top half of qb's in the league.
I totally understand how you would come to that assessment, because he has thrown in some clunkers, but don't underestimate how many horrible
QBs are currently starting in the NFL.
On his best day he is probably around 5th in the league and on his worst day he is probably around 20th but look at the NFL's QBs.
NFC
Romo- Never won anything
McNabb- Never won anything
Campbell- Not even in the same sentence
Cutler- INT machine, Never won anything
Stafford- Rookie
Favre- CLEARLY BETTER, PROBABLY RETIRED
Rodgers- More productive, Never won anything
Delhomme/Moore- Not even close
Ryan- Never won anything
Freeman- Rookie
Brees- CLEARLY BETTER
Smith- Not even close
STL QB to be Named- Next
Hassellbeck- Never won anything
Warner- CLEARLY BETTER but Retired (Lienart isn't close)
AFC
Brady- CLEARLY BETTER
Henne- Isn't even close
Edwards- Isn't even close
Sanchez- Rookie
P. Manning- CLEARLY BETTER
Young- Never won anything
Schaub- Never won anything
Garrard- Never won anything
Roethlisberger- CLEARLY BETTER
Quinn- Isn't even close
Flacco- Never won anything
Palmer- Never won anything
Cassel- Never won anything
Russell- Isn't even close
Orton- Isn't even close
Rivers- Never won anything, but he surely debatable
That means that there are only 6 NFL QBs who are clearly better then Eli and 2 of them are either already retired or soon will be. I also understand
that people could argue to put McNabb, Romo, Rodgers, Rivers and a handful of the "fantasy guys" ahead of him, but Eli isn't exactly a
terrible fantasy QB either. He finished 11th in my league in QB fantasy points and, once again, 2 of the people above him either are retired or may
be.
Long story short, before you crap on Eli being the Giants starter please look at that list above and try to find 15 QBs that are better then him.
They aren't there.
Brees, Brady, Peyton, Ben, Favre and Warner are the only guys who are head and shoulders above him. With Warner and Favre retiring that only leaves
the other 4. Rivers, Rodgers, McNabb and Romo are probably also debatable but, once again, none have ever won anything and Eli has a nice shiny ring.
I thought about adding Schaub and possible Culter to that list but they haven't even made the playoffs as starters. Eli, for all of his
faults, has only missed the playoffs once in a full season. Oh yeah, not to put the kiss of death on him, but he also plays full seasons which is
more then anyone other then Peyton or Brett can say.
Enjoy what you have DevilSop. We could be trotting David Garrard's stunning mediocrity, Jay Culter's reckless interceptions, or Donovan
McNabb's Super Bowl puking out there instead.
EDITED TO ADD: The most common argument that I get back when presenting my pro-Eli case is "look how good his teams have been!" My general comeback
is that the Super Bowl 42 Giants were a 5 seed and arguably the least talented Super Bowl winning team in history. We didn't even become
"good" until the year AFTER Eli won the Super Bowl and that season was undermined by Plaxigate... not Eli.
[Edited on 2-18-2010 by DKBroiler]
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Columbo
Posts 389
Registered 11-2-2004 Location Jersey Member Is Offline Mood: purple
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| posted on 2-18-2010 at 10:23 PM |
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McNabb- Never won anything
I'm gonna let my love of the Cuse outshine my hatred of the Iggles for a second. Donovan has taken the Eagles to the NFC championship game 5
times and to the SuperBowl once. In the majority of these years the Eagles receiving corp could be described as mediocre at best. Add in the fact
that Donovan helped revolutionize the QB position, I feel that with a few more years of solid production and hopefully a change in scenery to a fan
base that apprieciates him* Donovan could well be in the midst of a HOF career. Eli, on the other hand, is gonna need a few more miracles to have a
shot at Canton.
*A boy can dream
Narrator: Tobias listens to a day's worth of his own words, to see what Michael was referring to...
Tobias F�nke: [on tape] ... even if it means me taking a chubby, I will suck it up.
Tobias F�nke: Nothing wrong with that.
Tobias F�nke: [on tape] Oh, I've been in the film business for a while, but I just can't seem to get one in the can.
Tobias F�nke: It's out of context.
Tobias F�nke: [on tape] I wouldn't mind kissing that man between the cheeks.
Narrator: ...and he realized there is something distinct about the way he speaks.
Tobias F�nke: Tobias, you blowhard.
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DevilSoprano
The Rowdy One
Posts 2692
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| posted on 2-18-2010 at 11:04 PM |
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If you're just going to base it on winning Super Bowls, then yea, Eli's TEH AWESOME~~~, but talent wise, just in the NFC alone, McNabb,
Rodgers, Ryan, Favre, Brees, and one or two others I can't think of off the top of my head are better.
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theflammablemanimal
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1410
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| posted on 2-18-2010 at 11:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
dude won my squad a Super Bowl so he can be our QB till he is 45 and I wouldn't complain once.
No. The defense won the Super Bowl. Eli made one clutch play, but everyone forgets that he giftwrapped an interception for Asante Samuel like 2 plays
before.
Seriously, is there any doubt that the Giants would have won that Superbowl (and maybe 1 or 2 more) if they hadn't traded for Manning and just
took Big Ben or Rivers (and kept those draft picks)? I couldn't believe it when those idiots made him the highest paid QB.
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Chris Is Good517
Posts 7879
Registered 1-10-2002 Location Little Rock, AR Member Is Offline Mood: OMG #1 Poster!
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| posted on 2-19-2010 at 12:07 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by theflammablemanimal
Eli made one clutch play, but everyone forgets that he giftwrapped an interception for Asante Samuel like 2 plays before.
It's awfully generous of you to give Eli credit for David Tyree's helmet growing a hand
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TommyD420
Showstopper 
Posts 775
Registered 12-30-2005 Location Worcester, MA Member Is Offline Mood: Smurfy
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| posted on 2-19-2010 at 12:39 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by theflammablemanimal
but everyone forgets that he giftwrapped an interception for Asante Samuel like 2 plays before.
Not everyone.
http://www.examiner.com/x-22126-Worcester-County-Progressive-Examiner
I write things. You should read them.
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atothej
Posts 2379
Registered 12-21-2002 Location Philly Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood.
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| posted on 2-19-2010 at 01:49 AM |
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ETA: Sorry to re-derail this discussion, but I had to address this inanity.
It's funny how this
quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
And before anyone says, "Well Trent Dilfer won a Super Bowl"
doesn't jibe with this
quote:
NFC
Romo- Never won anything
McNabb- Never won anything
Rodgers- More productive, Neve won anything
Ryan- Never won anything
AFC
Brady- CLEARLY BETTER
Schaub- Never won anything
Roethlisberger- CLEARLY BETTER
Palmer- Never won anything
Rivers- Never won anything, but he surely debatable
Thus, by the only metric that appears to matter, in these rankings, it is inexorably true that Brad Johnson, Mark Rypien and Trent Dilfer are clearly
superior to Dan Marino, Dan Fouts and Fran Tarkenton. THERE CAN BE NO DEBATE!
But wait, that can't be true, so what is it then? Could it be that football is a team sport and that QBs are not the sole determining factor of
a team winning a Super Bowl? Let's see about that:
quote:
The most common argument that I get back when presenting my pro-Eli case is "look how good his teams have been!" My general comeback is that
the Super Bowl 42 Giants were a 5 seed and arguably the least talented Super Bowl winning team in history. We didn't even become "good" until
the year AFTER Eli won the Super Bowl and that season was undermined by Plaxigate... not Eli.
Nope. Eli won that one on his own. No way that one of the most dominant defensive line performances (including the emergence of Justin Tuck) had
anything to do with that SB run. That team was a fucking joke, and Eli Manning bootstrapped them to a title. All you titleless fucks can suck it:
Eli wins by the only metric that matters, SB wins.
[Edited on 2-19-2010 by atothej]
Your momma's so fat, Dave Meltzer gave her struggling to put her jeans on in the morning five stars. -- FF, destroying Jeb, his momma, and
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DKBroiler
SpeciASSl CUMedian
Posts 301
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| posted on 2-19-2010 at 03:41 PM |
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Sorry Lucky, but I have to rederail this just once more just for one final counterpoint.
The reason why my breakdown of each QB was so short was just so I could do it quickly. Here is a little more detailed analysis in reverse Bill
Simmons fashion. Let me point out that both stats and SuperBowls count virtually equally for me, however until you win 1 SuperBowl I won't rank
you higher then someone of similar stature because you have not shown the ability yet to win one. (example: Favre would be higher then Marino on my
all time list because of similar stats and the 1 ring; Rypien, Dilfer, Hostetler etc. do not rank higher then Marino, because I am not blind) I am not
so stupid as to think that Eli is a better QB then Dan Marino. Marino's stats are so ridiculous that I would be a fool to say that. But Marino
would lose a "tie breaker" for me to Brett Favre, Peyton Manning or Tom Brady. All of those guys have both a ring (or in Brady's case rings)
and have had quite a few awesome statistical seasons. Also, I understand that there are over 50 other people on the roster and no QB can win one by
himself. With that said however, and this is a point that I have not seen anyone make, a QB certainly can lose a SuperBowl (or big game in general)
all by himself and much of my love for Eli stems from the fact that he was good enough to not screw it up enough so that the Giants could win the
SuperBowl.
The Clearly Better Then Eli Division
1) Drew Brees- Until a few weeks ago he would have been right above McNabb in the flight directly below. However showing the ability to overcome long
odds against a favored team, coupled with him coming off an offensive player of the year award last season and a 3 year stretch that is simply
superhuman he gets put on top of the list today.
2) Peyton Manning- The Sheriff could end up being the greatest QB to ever put on cleats statistically however his SuperBowl win was only a mediocre
performance and, well, he just lost to a team that he was supposed to beat in another SuperBowl. His 1 SuperBowl title, multiple MVPs, and overall
health put him here for me. Never underestimate how important it is to play every game.
3) Tom Brady- 18 months ago he would have been number 1 with a bullet. Sadly the knee injury derailed that, but he did win NFL comeback player of the
year so he did at least get to a similar level to what he was before. 3 Super Bowl titles are the main reason he is here but his MVP season of 2
years ago showed exactly what he can do if pushed to do so. Another guy who still has a shot to be sitting at the top of the QB Mt Rushmore, but
today he comes in at #3 in the NFL.
4) Brett Favre- Top stat agregater ever, but not without tons of faults. The plusses are never missing games, winning a SuperBowl and being the
alltime leader in yards and TDs. The minuses include being the alltime leader in INTs and having some hugely terrible moments in the playoffs the
last decade which submarined his team's chances. (6 INTs vs the Rams, The Dawkins INT, The Corey Webster INT, His last throw this year)
5) Kurt Warner- He is retired now but 1 SuperBowl win, an MVP and having the 3 greatest yardage games in SuperBowl history put him here. The last 2
years secured his Canton enshrinement also. The minuses are the late start to his career, the mid career vanishing and numerous missed games for
injury. With that said however, I do feel more comfortable with Warner in a big game then Favre, but Favre's overall health and total stats
pushed him higher.
6) Ben Roethlisberger- 2 rings is the main argument. Sorry, but 2 rings trumps lots of things in my eyes. Also, statistically speaking he is 51-20*
as a starter (profootballreference only lists records as the starting QB through the beginning of last season) and has 2 very good statisical seasons
(2007, 2009) for the fantasy guys out there. Having only played 1 full season keeps him from being higher on this list.
---
This is where the argument begins. Eli, in my humble opinion, belongs somewhere in this next group. Personally his ring, for me, would put him at
the top of it, but I could understand someone forming an argument for any of the following guys based off of stats.
---
The Probably More Talented then Eli but Never Won the Big One Division
7) Donovan McNabb- I will first like to say that my blanket "never won anything" comparison didn't give McNabb his proper credit. 82-45-1 is
a phenomenal record. His TD to INT ratio of 216 to 100 is unreal. He has gotten his team to 5 NFC Championships and 1 SuperBowl. If you asked me,
does he belong in Canton I would say yes without thinking twice. However, McNabb has 1 huge flaw that Eli does not have like it or not. Eli, in the
biggest game of his life beat arguably the greatest team ever assembled. McNabb, in 2004, lost the SuperBowl to a Patriots team that was less
talented then the version that lost to the Giants and he puked on the field in the process. Eli, for all of his faults, has shown an ability to
overcome long odds, while McNabb systematically only beats teams with less talent then his and never "overcomes". Athletically, and statistically
McNabb is better in every measure then Eli, but if you were down 5 points with 90 seconds left and 80 yards to go, would you rather have McNabb or
Eli? If you answered anything other then Eli then you haven't spent the last 11 years watching Eagles football. That 1 question is why I
personally would rather have Eli, but the rest of the paragraph makes me understand why someone would rather go in a different direction.
8) Philip Rivers- Statistical marvel especially his last 2 seasons. I cannot however get past the fact that he has played on a SuperBowl quality team
each of his 4 seasons and never once made the SuperBowl let alone win one. If he gets his ring then I would have no issue pushing him above Eli.
Until then, he is just a guy who puts up great hollow stats. Would I take him in fantasy over Eli? Clearly I would. But, since Eli puts up good (if
not great like Rivers) stats, Eli's ability to win in the clutch makes me put him higher on the list. Once again, anyone in this group is
debatable and I have no issue with someone liking Rivers more.
9) Tony Romo- See Philip Rivers and then add that he has only won 1 playoff game. Also spending years on the bench at the beginning of his career
inflate his career QB rating to over 90. If he had to spend 2 years learning on the job I would venture that his overall stats wouldn't look as
good.
10) Aaron Rodgers- See Tony Romo and then add that he has won zero playoff games.
---
The Don't Get Ahead of Yourself Division
In the interest of word count I will put all of the following people in here. Flacco, Ryan, Freeman, Sanchez, Henne and Stafford. Most of these guys
have tons of talent and may, one day, have better careers then Eli. If you are saying that you would rather have Stafford then Eli for the rest of
his career then that is understandable because of age, but c'mon. These guys have been in the league less then 2 years. Flacco looks like a
player but didn't he pass for less then 100 yards in his playoff win this year? Ryan took a huge step back this season. Henne probably
doesn't even belong in this group. And Sanchize, Freeman and Stafford don't have near the resume that Eli does so far in their careers.
Today none is a better QB then Eli. 2 years from now, maybe. Now, nope.
---
The Mediocre QB Division of Various Reasons (No particular order, just below Eli)
Hasselbeck has had a good career but is most famous for demanding the ball in OT and throwing a pick 6. He also is a shell of his former self these
days.
Cutler has more talent then almost anyone mentioned. He is also a reckless interception machine and is probably closer to Jeff George then any QB
I've ever seen.
Garrard is so mediocre that he is about to be replaced at QB by an H-Back.
Young is a wildcard. You could tell me that he wins 2 SuperBowls and I would believe you. You could tell me that he goes batshit insane and jumps
off a bridge and I would believe you. I honestly don't even want to debate Vince Young because people are so all over the map on him that it
would just cause another argument. I'm just putting him here because I have no idea where to rank him. But his lack of a ring puts him below
Eli.
Schaub- Fantasy powerhouse. Not only has he never won a SuperBowl, he has also never won a playoff game. Actually he has never even competed in a
playoff game. Get to 10 wins once and I'll put him somewhere higher. Until then if you argue that Schaub could have won playoff games if he
started with for the Giants, I would argue that Eli could have no issue throwing for 4,000+ yards if he had Andre Johnson. Especially since he just
threw for 4000+ yards with a number one reciever who's first name was "The Other".
Cassel- He took the best team ever and turned them into an 11-5 team. He then took a terrible team and made them... um... still terrible. No
thanks.
Vick- I'm listing him here because we all know that he is a starting QB dressed up in backups clothes. There are tons of arguments for him, but
we all know the argument against him. Somehow I don't think that "ring leader of multi-state puppy murdering gambling ring" will ever be used
to describe Eli.
Palmer- Tons of talent I'm told, but you wouldn't have known it by watching him the last 2 seasons. I really think that his knee injury
cost him what could have been a remarkable career. Also he has a nice 0-2 playoff record.
Orton- Probably better then people give him credit for, but he is nothing more then a guy who is pretty good at not screwing it up. He is Jason
Campbell with a slightly higher talent level... and that may be a stretch.
---
The Now You Are Simply Being Absurd Division
Jason Campbell's 1 positive is he doesn't throw that many INTs. Other then that... well... um... shit.
Delhomme or Moore- Really? REALLY?
Alex Smith- Ha hahahahaa!!!
STL QB to be Named- Clearly nope.
Brady Quinn or Derek Anderson- Not a shot in hell.
Trent Edwards- So bad that TO didn't even bother to throw him under the bus.
Jamarcus Russell- He is no better then The Miz. Haha. Joking. He stinks at everything.
I think that is everyone. Once again, sorry for rederailing this thread, and if you got to move it then please go ahead and do so. I just wanted to
expound on my therory that Eli is somewhere between the 5th (if both Favre and Warner stay retired) and the 11th best QB currently in the NFL. In no
way am I saying that he is the best thing going. I'm just trying to tell people, especially Giants fans, to not hate on Eli because 20 to 25
teams have it worse then we do.
[Edited on 2-19-2010 by DKBroiler]
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theflammablemanimal
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1410
Registered 9-2-2008 Member Is Offline Mood: missing his ava
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| posted on 2-19-2010 at 05:02 PM |
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Jesus, was that really necessary? You do realize there is a sports forum with an NFL thread, right?
Also, you're not going to win any points with these guys by comparing yourself to Bill Simmons.
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DKBroiler
SpeciASSl CUMedian
Posts 301
Registered 1-25-2008 Location Exit 8 off Rt 42, New Jersey Member Is Offline Mood: Skip Baylessish
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| posted on 2-19-2010 at 05:08 PM |
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AtotheJ and a few others called me out so I felt like I needed to give a detailed response.
Yes I understand there is sports forum. Hence the reason why I apologized for it at the start. If the Mods want to move this there then more power
to them. But responding to something in this thread by starting a different one probably wouldn't have accomplished anything.
I was not comparing myself to Bill Simmons. I was however, recklessly ripping off one of his gimicks so I had to give him credit.
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TommyD420
Showstopper
Posts 775
Registered 12-30-2005 Location Worcester, MA Member Is Offline Mood: Smurfy
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| posted on 2-19-2010 at 08:30 PM |
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DK - the 2004 Patriots team was far more talented than the 2007 version, and it wasn't even really close. 2007's passing offense had no
peer, but outside of that, the 2004 team wins every other possible category, including coaching.
http://www.examiner.com/x-22126-Worcester-County-Progressive-Examiner
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OOMike
Man of a Thousand Holds 
Posts 1316
Registered 1-3-2002 Location Columbus, OH Member Is Offline Mood: Shiny
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| posted on 2-19-2010 at 11:56 PM |
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I would probably put McNabb and Rivers ahead of Eli, talent wise, and Rodgers would be a wait and see...but I would take Eli over Romo everytime,
unless the game is in September and Romo is not dating anyone...then it would be a toss up.
Alright already, I'm sorry, Unfuck you.
The only OO columnist that has never written a column.
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Chris Is Good517
Posts 7879
Registered 1-10-2002 Location Little Rock, AR Member Is Offline Mood: OMG #1 Poster!
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| posted on 2-20-2010 at 12:27 AM |
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I would definitely put McNabb ahead of Eli but I can certainly understand the argument in the other direction. I also kind of think DK is being
overgenerous to Big Ben (I know that's probably weird coming from a Steelers homer) as I think Ben and Eli are probably pretty close to equal in
terms of talent and ability but then again Ben won a ring in spite of an offensive line that would have been easily interchangable with a banner made
of rice paper so I guess that does speak pretty well for him.
The OOficial 2009 Poster of the Year!
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Sportsguy
rOOkie
Posts 32
Registered 10-17-2009 Location Illinois Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 2-21-2010 at 08:01 PM |
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I'm a Packer fan and shareholder, so I might be a little biased. But anyone who thinks Eli Manning is a better QB than Aaron Rodgers is either
an idiot who's never watched a game of football before or the biggest Giants homer that's ever lived.
Look at any attribute you want your quarterback to have: Arm strength? Rodgers. Accuracy? Rodgers. Mobility? Rodgers. Decision making (i.e TD/INT
ratio)? Rodgers by a fucking mile. Leadership? Rodgers
Yes, Eli has a (fluke) ring and Rodgers hasn't yet won a playoff game, but Rodgers has only PLAYED one playoff game, and been a starter for 2
years, hardly a fair point. But just for fun,let's compare the playoff stats of the first career playoff games of the two, shall we?
Eli Manning
10-18, 113 yards, 0 td's 3 picks 1 fumble, lost 23-0
Aaron Rodgers
28-42, 423 yards, 4 tds 1 pick 1 fumble, lost 51-45
Manning's CAREER numbers in the playoffs?
113-193, 1297 yards, 8 tds 7 picks 1 fumble, 4-3 record
So a guy who's got barely over a .500 record in the playoffs and has as many playoff turnovers in his career as he does touchdown passes is a
top ten qb in the league?If you say so....Me, I'll take the 27 year old rapidly improving mobile QB who should take yet another step forward
next year.
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Cherokee Jack
Creepy Little Bastard
Posts 69
Registered 2-24-2009 Location New Orleans, LA Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 2-22-2010 at 01:10 AM |
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100% agreed on Rodgers. As far as "what he's won," Eli has four trips to the postseason, which saw the one Super Bowl and three one-and-outs.
Rodgers has had one trip to the postseason, which in spite of the loss, has been much more impressive than any of Eli's playoff losses (i.e. I
don't think any of Eli's defenses have ever given up 45 points in a playoff game). And, as someone pointed out, before his big clutch
play (which I do give him credit for, as it was impressive how he was able to get away from the defense), he did hand the game to the Patriots, except
that Samuel was unable to hold on to it. Looking purely at their talent and ability, I absolutely want Rodgers on my team given the choice between
the two.
I don't hate Eli. I like him. But he's clearly a second tier quarterback, and he's not close to knocking on the first tier. As
far as other 2nd-tier guys [ignoring age], I'd absolutely take Rodgers, McNabb, Rivers, or Vince Young if his head's on straight before
Eli, and a few others I think would be good alternatives at much lower price tags.
And one other thing:quote:
Vick- I'm listing him here because we all know that he is a starting QB dressed up in backups clothes. There are tons
of arguments for him, but we all know the argument against him. Somehow I don't think that "ring leader of multi-state puppy murdering gambling
ring" will ever be used to describe Eli.
So your best point to justify Eli being a better quarterback than Vick has nothing to do with being a
quarterback, or football at all? Might as well lump Vick in ahead of Eli as well.
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DKBroiler
SpeciASSl CUMedian
Posts 301
Registered 1-25-2008 Location Exit 8 off Rt 42, New Jersey Member Is Offline Mood: Skip Baylessish
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| posted on 2-23-2010 at 08:23 PM |
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A few things...
1) I am a Giants fan but far from a homer. I totally understand Eli's faults and he is far from perfect.
2) Rodgers is a chance to be a great QB, no doubt about it, and last I checked he was actually the highest rated QB of all time. I get all of those
things, and like I stated previously, he is one of the guys who can be debated upon being better then him. With that said, the QB rating is a bit
inflated since he never "learned on the job" during his first few years behind Brett and he plays in a West Coast offense. Eli never did have that
luxury.
3) I do know that Asante Samuel dropped that INT in the Super Bowl. I too have not forgotten it, but the NFL is littered with moments like this.
Ultimately most games (and seasons for that matter) come down to only a handful of plays that could go either way. Frankly if "The Tuck Rule" Game
went the other way, maybe the Raiders have an extra Super Bowl title and the Pats dynasty never happens. If Scott Norwood never missed wide right,
maybe Buffalo doesn't lose 4 Super Bowls in a row. If the Titans had drafted Randy Moss instead of Kevin Dyson maybe they would have beaten the
Rams in the Super Bowl. Lots of could ofs and would ofs litter the NFL landscape. Because of that I try to minimize the "why" and maximise the
"what". Why someone won a SuperBowl to me is much less important then if they simply did or not.
4) After rereading my Vick point, you were right to call me out on that. Chalk it up to brain lock after typing so many words so quickly. "Ring
Leader of Multi-State Puppy Murdering Gambling Ring" does not make you a bad or good QB. But being in jail for over a year, followed by the bench
for another, clearly creates rust and I would be shocked if he turns back into the Mike Vick of 5 years ago again. Vick, when at the top of his game,
was simply a dynamic QB who I loved to watch. Also, if the puppy thing had never happened I would have no issue putting him ahead of Eli or, at
worst, into that debateable area. As it sits right now, I am simply waiting for the first pro athlete to be as good after prison as he was before it
because I cannot think of one.
---
For "Sports Guy" specifically. I actually agree with most of what you said. Mobility and accuracy are clearly on Rodgers side. I think that you
are short changing Eli's arm strength, and probably over selling Rodger's arm strength but that isn't something that I'm going
to argue because I doubt either of us are sitting at the stadium with a radar gun.
The one point that I don't agree with on you however is "leadership". Frankly, I see no true way of judging this scientifically or
statistically. If you go by how much their teammates like each of them it's probably a wash, because neither is a sideline ass like Rivers, but
if you go by leadership meaning getting the most out of your troops, Eli's Super Bowl victory is way more then what Rodgers has lead the Packers
to.
Once again, I'm not trying to bash Aaron Rodgers. The guy is an awesome talent. But he simply has not achieved what Eli has so far in his
career.
As a final point, in every walk of life I always value what I know over what I believe. I know that Eli Manning can win a Super Bowl. You only
believe that Rodgers can.
[Edited on 2-23-2010 by DKBroiler]
[Edited on 2-23-2010 by DKBroiler]
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atothej
Posts 2379
Registered 12-21-2002 Location Philly Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood.
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| posted on 2-23-2010 at 10:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DKBroiler
Because of that I try to minimize the "why" and maximise the "what". Why someone won a SuperBowl to me is much less important then if they simply
did or not.
As a final point, in every walk of life I always value what I know over what I believe. I know that Eli Manning can win a Super Bowl. You only
believe that Rodgers can.
So, again, we're left with the Super Bowl being the only defining metric of a player. Brad Johnson can win a Super Bowl and Marino can't.
That's definitive. Nevermind the "why" in either case, just the "what."
I don't see how you can defend this position without being completely myopic about what makes a QB good/great. If the why doesn't matter,
then all Super Bowl winning QBs are definitively better than all QBs who didn't win a Super Bowl.
Moreover, QBs who won more than one Super Bowl are definitively better than QBs who won only one. This leaves us with the absurd result that
Roethlisberger is better than Young who is better than Marino. Using actual player analysis, however, it is almost certain that those QB rankings
would be in reverse.
Therefore, we're left with your explained position being: win a Super Bowl (no matter your actual performance in the game), and you're
better than everyone who hasn't. If that is not the position, then we need to use other analysis. Based on the other analysis (i.e. numbers),
Eli isn't as good as you rank him.
Your momma's so fat, Dave Meltzer gave her struggling to put her jeans on in the morning five stars. -- FF, destroying Jeb, his momma, and
Meltzer in one fell swoop.
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OOMike
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1316
Registered 1-3-2002 Location Columbus, OH Member Is Offline Mood: Shiny
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| posted on 2-23-2010 at 11:21 PM |
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Lets look at this....
Eli Manning 1st full year as a starter took a 6-10 Giants team in 2004 and went 11-5 in 2005 (After Kurt Warner left)
Aaron Rodgers 1st full year as a starter took a 13-3 Packers team in 2007 and went 6-10 in 2008 (after Brett left)
Full disclosure...I have been a Giants fan since I put my first football in my mouth. Right now, I think Eli is a better QB, but I can see Rodgers
possibly having a better career.
Alright already, I'm sorry, Unfuck you.
The only OO columnist that has never written a column.
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Stone Cold Steve Autism
I did eat all the macaroni. I don't know how he knows.
Posts 2089
Registered 4-29-2008 Member Is Offline Mood: Sparklee
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| posted on 2-23-2010 at 11:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by OOMike
Lets look at this....
Eli Manning 1st full year as a starter took a 6-10 Giants team in 2004 and went 11-5 in 2005 (After Kurt Warner left)
Aaron Rodgers 1st full year as a starter took a 13-3 Packers team in 2007 and went 6-10 in 2008 (after Brett left)
In his first full season with the Giants, Eli Manning had an INT/TD ratio of 1:1.4 (17 picks to 24 TDs). Basically, by his third TD of a game,
he statistically should have been on the cusp of his second pick.
In his first full season with the Packers, Aaron Rodgers has an INT/TD ratio of 1:2.15 (13 picks to 28 TDs). In short, by the time he reached
pick number two, he was already cruising past TD number four.
Rodgers' completion percentage was also 12 points higher.
Also remember that this is an unequal comparison, as Manning had already started a full 7 games the previous season. Also, Tiki Barber set the
Giants' single-season rushing record in 2005.
Using W/L records alone to compare QBs is really silly. Because it does things like make people think that Aaron Rodgers' first year
wasn't unequivocally better than Eli Manning's first year + 7 games' experience.
[Edited on 2-24-2010 by Stone Cold Steve Autism]
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OOMike
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1316
Registered 1-3-2002 Location Columbus, OH Member Is Offline Mood: Shiny
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| posted on 2-24-2010 at 12:09 AM |
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Just as silly as comparing everything else. The teamates around the QB matter, the system the Offense uses matter, the coaching philosophy matter.
There is no comparing apples to apples since there are variables everywhere.
For example, was Rodgers ratio better because the Packers had to play from behind and throw the ball more because of a lack of defense and running
game? Did the coach adjust his offense for a new QB?
Basically what I am trying to say is that it all comes down to the "eye" test. Everyone's opinion is based off what they see. You watch
Marino play, you could tell he was an extremely talented QB. You watch JaMarcus, you can tell he is not. These are obviously ends of the spectrum,
but when you get toward the middle, it is truly in the eye of the beholder.
ETA: add the schedule matters...playing Detroit twice a year.
[Edited on 2-24-2010 by OOMike]
Alright already, I'm sorry, Unfuck you.
The only OO columnist that has never written a column.
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