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posted on 10-20-2017 at 10:20 AM
OO Questions and Answers thread:
So I'm watching Wrestlemania X and Owen has Bret in the sharpshooter and all of a sudden Bret starts hitting the ground in a manner which we
would now associate with "tapping out" and yet the match continued. So when did "tapping out" become a thing (Shamrock? Angle?)? Did you have to
say I submit before? Was this a major gaff? Did Bret get paid twice for WM X? Okay that last one has nothing to do with the other but just popped in
my head when you consider that supposedly payouts were done on which match they figure the fans wanted to see most.
Anyway; I know I've had questions like this before and haven't been able to find the answer, or figured it might be a dumb question (I
can't be the only one who wondered who would win in a fight between Dink and Hornswoggle) and forgot about it; so I thought why not a thread
where we could put our collective years of fandom to use.... So throw a question out there, or if you know the answer throw that out there too.
As for my above question about the "tap out" I've seen a few theories:
*Taz in ECW popularized in.
*Terry Taylor pushed for it- it first appeared in a WCW match between Psychosis and Ultimo Dragon.
*Hart versus Shamrock
Anyone got anything else?
Flash
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posted on 10-20-2017 at 10:47 AM
Here's a crazy questions... and probably really morbid too... Wrestlemania 6 featured 45 different wrestlers and managers; of which 18 are now
dead: is there another single more "cursed" PPV than this one?
A: Summer Slam 1990 would seem to have a higher percentage per this site: http://www.profightdb.com/wrestling-ppv-cards-with-highest-death-count.php
but by my count "only" 16 gone too soon from the wrestling community (although I was counting both managers and wrestlers, maybe they are just
counting wrestlers?). Although what's really depressing about SS 90 is that there is only ONE match that currently exists that does not feature
someone who is gone, be it manager or wrestler; with 4 of the 11 matches featured having all parties gone.
Although if you include the NFL players from the battle Royale in Wrestlemania 2, it also has 18 guys who aren't with us anymore.
Okay I gotta stop answering my own questions and go to bed...
ulsterphil
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posted on 10-20-2017 at 11:31 AM
I always thought that "tapping out" came to the fore with the increase of submission moves that made the receiver's head hard to access for
the referee. Moves like the Crossface and such, where the mouth would be muffled.
But aesthetically speaking, tapping out is a much better visual for the audience to see than a referee having to get down to the person and ask if
they submit. It adds a lot of gravitas to both the move and the performer applying it. I remember seeing Bret Hart lock Mr. Perfect in the
Sharpshooter at Summerslam 91 and thinking "fuck me that must hurt" Perfect didn't tap, but he shook his head like a wet dog while being in
what looked like visable agony, it really sold the move. I think tapping out is the easiest way to put that across for any performer, not just those
that could sell sand to the Arabs.
[Edited on 10-20-2017 by ulsterphil]
CCharger
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posted on 10-20-2017 at 05:16 PM
Tapping out became a thing during the Monday Night Wars that coincided with Ken Shamrock's debut and the rise in popularity of UFC/MMA.
Prior to 1997-ish, a wrestler could only win by submission by telling the referee "I quit" or "I submit" or "I give up" or even nod and say
"Yes!" if the referee asked him if he wanted to submit.
It was quite common before this for wrestlers to slap the mat in apparent pain or as a way to get fans to clap in unison and/or cheer on the babyface
to break the hold and make his comeback.
"She was warned. She was given an explanation. Nevertheless, she persisted."
"The powers of the president to protect our country are very substantial and will not be questioned."
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salmonjunkie
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posted on 10-20-2017 at 05:24 PM
my favorite is when someone was in a submission hold and the ref would yell "do you give up?" and the wrestler would shake his head no, only to
change his mind and nod his head yes and the match ends and the crowd goes wild.
Also, remember how sleeper holds used to be decided with three drops of the arm? Except for sometimes with jobbers, they'd only do it once, and
the ref would call the match then? As a kid, I always thought that was unfair for the jobber.
quote:Tapping out became a thing during the Monday Night Wars that coincided with Ken Shamrock's debut and the rise in popularity of
UFC/MMA
I believe that Charger's answer is the correct answer to the question.
[Edited on 10-20-2017 by salmonjunkie]
CCharger
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posted on 10-20-2017 at 05:37 PM
When did kayfabe die?
"She was warned. She was given an explanation. Nevertheless, she persisted."
"The powers of the president to protect our country are very substantial and will not be questioned."
--- Stephen Miller, Trump senior White House advisor, Feb. 12, 2017
salmonjunkie
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posted on 10-20-2017 at 06:50 PM
The first major blow to kayfabe was when Vince McMahon admitted to a state athletic that pro wrestling was predetermined to prevent having to pay a
large amount of something that real sports like boxing had to pay (or it was for less stringent drug testing).
But when it died for the fans and the viewing public was here:
Flash
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posted on 10-20-2017 at 07:37 PM
Probably a slow progression of everyone knowing, but no one admitting it, with a few notable "bumps" in the road.
You could probably say Kayfabe was still alive at times like David Shultz knocking out a 20/20 reporter in 1984, or Hogan choking out Beltzer in 1985;
both of which resulted in lawsuits... Guys still seemed to go to some effort to protect the business, although you would imagine lawsuit/court records
for the defense probably talk a bit about the scripted element of the assaults if either were planned. Watching some of those Legends of Wrestling
roundtables on the network you would definitely get the sense that Kayfabe was still alive and well even into the late 80's early 90's.
But a few times where it was broken include:
1987 saw Duggan and the Iron Sheikh arrested together; which given their face/heel status at the time was a no no as heels and faces still traveled
separately at the time.
As mentioned above; to get out of a variety of payments and regulations McMahon testified before the NJ Senate that wrestling was not legit athletics
in 1989.
The 1993 steroid trial probably raised a lot of attention about the behind the scenes nature of the business.
1996 saw the curtain call. Can't remember if it was in either 96 or 97 you had Vince's Raw speech about the Attitude era starting.
1997 saw maybe one of the first, and biggest behind the scenes looks with Bret Hart's Wrestling with Shadows documentary as it not only opened
things up backstage, but also gave us an inside view about the infamous screwjob.
I can't remember the dates; but up here in Canada Michael Landsbergs "off the record" television/panel show would often deviate from
it's 4 guest panels and usually do one on one interviews with wrestlers which were generally out of character- I think Vince even outright
publicly said it was predetermined entertainment- this would have been in late 90's and early 2000's.
Late 90's gave us Beyond the Mat- another behind the scenes all access view into the locker room.
Through the late 90's you also saw the rise of the internet; which meant there was a full account of every house show, rumour, gossip, and fan
recollections readily available around the world. You also had more people with voices, which meant more wrestlers talking (the whole boom period of
the late 90's being what it was) meaning more slips here and there.
The McMahon New Jersey testimony is probably about as close to an official time of death that you could pin down to anyone one moment being on record;
but it was definitely an ongoing wisening up of the public akin to magicians where you know it isn't magic, but before many of the above (and
probably a lot more that likely pre-date some of the above) you didn't know HOW the trick was done.
I remember my own personal moment of something being not on the up and up was when my mom used to read trashy gossip stuff like Star Magazine and I
remember seeing a story about some former female referee suing McMahon over sexual harassment, and the article referenced him as the actual owner of
the WWE- which was long before he was "outed" on TV.... My uncle always told me it was fake, and swore he saw Andre and some heel or face
(can't remember when) drinking together at a bar later after having watched them wrestler earlier... for whatever reason that, and the rumours
about there being two ultimate warriors (due to his smaller look after returning from a hiatus) were probably my own personal glass is shattering
moments.
Does anyone else remember their own personal "it really is fake" moment?
DKBroiler
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posted on 10-21-2017 at 02:30 PM
I distinctly remember telling my mom before HBK v Undertaker in the first Hell in a Cell �Well obviously Raw is scripted but I�m pretty sure they let
them go at it for real on Pay Per View.� Lil� DK was always in on the joke for the most part but I couldn�t wrap my brain around how 2 people could
fight in a massive PPV cage match and allow someone to inflict that much damage upon them.
But ... holy shit ... I just remembered the exact moment kayfabe started to crumble for me.
Diesel suddenly had some grey hair.
That�s it. Grey hair. It didn�t even make any sense to me that these guys were actual
PEOPLE until literally THAT moment. Holy fuck. I haven�t thought of that in like 25 years.
Braun Strowman guy.
GodEatGod
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posted on 10-21-2017 at 02:58 PM
quote:Originally posted by CCharger
When did kayfabe die?
Obligatory
The first kayfabe breaking thing I remember was my dad telling me Nikolai Volkoff wasn't really Russian, he was some guy from Maryland. That and
Kamala the Ugandan giant. Even as a kid, I was like "This seems like some racist bullshit".
"It is an impressively arrogant move to conclude that just because you don't like something, it is empirically not good. I don't like
Chinese food, but I don't write articles trying to prove it doesn't exist." - Tina Fey
salmonjunkie
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posted on 10-21-2017 at 07:46 PM
I want to say I always "knew" that WWF was fake back in the 80s with their larger than life characters. But I was convinced that NWA was real, or
at least "more real" than WWF was.
First 9
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posted on 10-21-2017 at 07:59 PM
It took Kane's wacky antics in 2003 for me to know it was fake. Part of it is because my parents liked convincing me it was real.
CVD39
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posted on 10-22-2017 at 02:22 AM
I remember going to some high school gym in Frisco, Texas in the mid/late 80's and seeing Lance Von Erich and my dad saying "He's no more
a Von Erich than I am" and being on vacation somewhere in the South (Shreveport?) and seeing Dustin Rhodes and a few other since forgotten rasslers
of the face and heel variety at a Denny's and my dad saying "Dustin probably shouldn't travel with {forgotten heel}". Oh, and I
remember hearing from more than one person "General Skandar Ackbar? That's Jimmy Wehba who sells cars over in Jacksboro" (No idea if he ever
actually did or not). By the time Percy Pringle went all black and managed the Undertaker, I already knew the score.
Never totally bought that it was real but I don't think I ever remember thinking "oh, it's fake?"
TexShark300
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posted on 10-24-2017 at 09:07 PM
quote:Originally posted by CVD39Oh, and I remember hearing from more than one person "General Skandar Ackbar? That's Jimmy Wehba who
sells cars over in Jacksboro" (No idea if he ever actually did or not).
He did
OOWF Historian
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- Msgt Hal D. Aaron
1953-2007
House watches TNA. He goes bowling. I Knew I liked that show for a reason.
Flash
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posted on 10-24-2017 at 11:57 PM
"It's still real to me dammit"
I'm sure we've all seen that crying fan espousing his love for the business on YouTube before... probably with a chuckle, or joke... after
all, it's not a terribly flattering video, and the guy looks like a bit of a out to lunch man child; face flush, tears in his eyes, and probably
far too old to still be believing in the sport entertainment equivalent of Santa Claus.
Turns out the guy has a name (who knew?), and I came across his account of what lead to that day that will immortalize him alongside the likes of Star
Wars Kid, and maybe that chunky Australian kid who power slammed that bullying kid... It's actually a very sweet read, and in some ways a
reminder of why we are fans, how great wrestling can be in a very real way... maybe not so much with the not knowing that the fix is in on the
finishes, but more the years most of us have spent at our dads, uncles, grandfathers, mothers, or grandmothers knee watchin' the
wrasslin', and now maybe for some of us our own kids or other little ones.
So just a thought that came into my head while reading about Austin's place in history in the Stunner vs SCM thread. The notion that not only
did Austin and the Attitude Era take WWE to new heights but saved them from bankruptcy.
How accurate is that? WWE had seen better days than the years when WCW was beating them in ratings but where they ever really in danger of flat out
going out of business? A few facts that have been thrown around is that in 1996(with the nWo at it's hottest) was a better year for business for
the WWE than 1995 and 97 was even better so things were picking up. Another one is that Bischoff claims he wanted to expand WCW but Canada was
basically a deadzone because all the major arenas were locked into exclusive contracts with Vince and that also applied to a lot of big places in the
US. Then there was the UK were WWE was alot more popular thanks to their constant touring. So it seems WWE was still dominating the house show
circuit, not because of the product being hot but by old exclusivity contracts paying off big time.
Then there's the administration side where Vince had to step it up with guaranteed contracts and better downpay but it never seemed to be the
mess WCW. You don't hear about WWE killing itself to try and keep up. Just the 20 year contract for Bret that Vince weaseled out of.
Was it ever reported that the USA was thinking about dropping them? Because looking back it seems that was really the only way where WCW could gank
them. WWE was still running a strong house show circuit, they were well managed without breaking the bank, and WCW's boom seemed to have
benefitted them aswell as they were overall doing better than the year before.
[Edited on 10-30-2017 by First 9]
Flash
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posted on 10-30-2017 at 05:04 AM
From what I've read 94 and 95 were definitely very bad years for the WWF; it also sounds like there were stretches maybe stretching into 96
where the WWE did struggle with payroll (Ross has made a few offhand comments in Legends of Wrestling)- 96 was definitely some improvement; but it was
from the sounds of it also a time that Vince's margins for error were very small, and that he was in a bit of a corner where he couldn't
come close to matching the inflated contracts that WCW could offer, which meant it was hard to make stars that he could keep... I recall an interview
with Foley where he said something about his signing in 96 came like a week before Vince finally caved and started giving out guaranteed contracts as
his first deal was pretty bad. In 95 he was still loaning out a lot of talent to stuff like Lawler's Memphis group, but by early 96 he
wasn't having any of it- one of the causes for Hall to bolt, as he has said he'd asked Vince to let him do some Japanese dates to bump up
his income some, so Vince was still trying to keep his roster in rotation as he needed them.
House shows in foreign markets might have done well for some tours, but I'm betting that those Mantaur, Gowinn's, Duke the Dumpster, or
Bastion Booger t-shirts weren't flying off the shelf... Merch' has always been a big part of the WWE's bottom line, and 94 to early
96 likely didn't really help as they struggled with making some new stars... I'm working my way through early Raw and am in early 95 at
this point and I'd reckon that probably 2/3 of new d�buts were duds... I came across a comment from Bob Holly that those Canadian tours
weren't exactly looked forward to by the talent as they were paid in Canadian funds at the time; and the exchange was pretty poor.
The Pillman's got a gun incident in November of 96 was about as close to being cancelled as the WWF had come from USA; by February of 97 Raw got
a second hour and some assistance with going live each week despite or because of being on a really bad losing streak to WCW; so you could maybe
assume that Vince was probably walking a bit of a tightrope... he'd delivered strong enough ratings in the past that there was cause to believe
in him, but if he became too big of a pain in the ass they weren't necessarily afraid to pull the trigger either... it also sounds like from
various sources USA would give a lot of notes, or tell Vince to squash or tone down certain things... the Billionaire Ted stuff, and even early
Goldust being examples. The thing with ratings though is if you are a TV network/cable channel, having the #2 show for your target audience probably
isn't quite as galling as it is to Vince watching his once unopposed empire falter.
Vince also had some various ventures that did not do so hot; the bodybuilding thing being most notable... all those ICO Pro ads were also him
basically sponsoring his own show as well... but that's 94, 95, and less in 96... still; not years where the personal coffers were getting
filled. Ross has said things were pretty grim at times; but I've never seen if that has meant the WWE would have survived enough to keep limping
by on a smaller scale, or if it meant they were that close to an everything must go the tent is folding up.
What's really interesting is a comment I've seen Bischoff make; that he was glad that in the end the WWF won; as had he won it is unlikely
that wrestling would still be where it is at to this day as for as much as WCW had problems; it was losing Ted's backing when he was ousted from
his own company during the whole Time-Warner or AOL merger happened... He got to keep his house show and merchandise money, but even he was operating
just slightly into the black as they weren't letting him keep any of his ad revenue... or counting it as a positive for him... the new
conglomerate was not a fan of wrestling; so odds are they would have tanked WCW anyway... Vince winning meant that wrestling still enjoys a pretty
good global prominence in the main stream to this day because of that.
First 9
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posted on 10-30-2017 at 09:54 PM
quote:Originally posted by Flash
The Pillman's got a gun incident in November of 96 was about as close to being cancelled as the WWF had come from USA.
Would have been fucking incredible if the Monday Night Wars had pushed both companies to go too far with WWF going off the air for risky content and
WCW bleeding too much money. Who knows what would happen to the wrestling world if they both had imploded.
CCharger
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posted on 10-30-2017 at 10:19 PM
quote:Originally posted by First 9
quote:Originally posted by Flash
The Pillman's got a gun incident in November of 96 was about as close to being cancelled as the WWF had come from USA.
Would have been fucking incredible if the Monday Night Wars had pushed both companies to go too far with WWF going off the air for risky content and
WCW bleeding too much money. Who knows what would happen to the wrestling world if they both had imploded.
EC-DUB EC-DUB EC-DUB EC-DUB
"She was warned. She was given an explanation. Nevertheless, she persisted."
"The powers of the president to protect our country are very substantial and will not be questioned."
--- Stephen Miller, Trump senior White House advisor, Feb. 12, 2017
Flash
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posted on 10-31-2017 at 01:17 AM
That I just can't see...
ECW had a lot of problems that had nothing to do with the big two at the time, and did not have the resources to compete with even the production
values of WCW (something the WWF had to play catch up on themselves)- which would probably have hindered national expansion. They also didn't
have any kind of branding to carry them out of their home territory; WCW had decades of southern territories behind them, and then grabbed up
nationally recognized talent as they got bigger... but even they also kind of had that "Southern' Wrasslin'" vibe to them at times.
I'd never say never in wrestling, but a dimly lit show with no stars to speak of likely wouldn't make it very far on cable/network TV if
the bigger two wrestling companies at the time hypothetically failed.
Curious as I couldn't find the answer for myself; did ECW ever tour much... like ever do shows outside the North East USA?
Had the WWF taken a bit hit or failed, and what Bischoff thought might happen to WCW came to pass then I could see a decent sized territorial revival
happening again... TV moving away from it's regional content based days might not have supported that the way it did in the past, but wrestling
would probably have still survived... albeit as probably a much more interesting landscape.
CheMateo
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posted on 11-1-2017 at 03:35 PM
quote:Originally posted by Flash
That I just can't see...
I think Charger was just joking. At the time ECW was deep in the red. Even if WWE and WCW went under, it was only a matter of time before ECW died off
too. But let's play hypotheticals for fun.
quote:They also didn't have any kind of branding to carry them out of their home territory; WCW had decades of southern territories behind
them, and then grabbed up nationally recognized talent as they got bigger... but even they also kind of had that "Southern' Wrasslin'"
vibe to them at times.
Even though XPW was trying to capitalize on being the new rebellious promotion and putting ECW over as selling out and becoming too corporate. ECW
still managed to retain that rebellious image in the mainstream. They were making cross roads with their line of action figures, video games, CD
release, commercial home releases, and magazine.
quote:I'd never say never in wrestling, but a dimly lit show with no stars to speak of likely wouldn't make it very far on cable/network
TV if the bigger two wrestling companies at the time hypothetically failed.
ECW always managed to get top name talent to come on through for a prolonged period of time or cup of coffee. With WWE and WCW both going under they
would be the next big dog in town and I am sure would have been able to absorb some of the talent. Did you ever see their latter ECW on TNN programs?
While nowhere near the level of WCW or WWE, they had upped their game due to the pressure from TNN.
quote:Had the WWF taken a bit hit or failed, and what Bischoff thought might happen to WCW came to pass then I could see a decent sized territorial
revival happening again... TV moving away from it's regional content based days might not have supported that the way it did in the past, but
wrestling would probably have still survived... albeit as probably a much more interesting landscape.
It certainly would have been interesting to see the landscape. Vince always said he would still be promoting even if WWE went under. Vince would have
probably been running a super indie fed out of the North East. Competing with ROH.
WWE was basically a territory with national television exposure during those dog days of 93-95. So, I think a major territory being WCW could have
still worked. Perhaps they could have gone the online route. But I always imagined another smaller cable network would have picked up some sort of
wrestling. Like a young F/X.
quote:Curious as I couldn't find the answer for myself; did ECW ever tour much... like ever do shows outside the North East USA?
Yes, they did. ECW frequently toured up and down the East Coast. Florida was a hot spot for ECW as well. They were making frequent in roads to the
mid-west. Chicago was another hot spot for ECW. They also made it out once to LA. I was able to attend their only LA PPV, Heat Wave 2000. ECW was
also touring Canada and doing gang buster business north of the border.
CamstunPWG187
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posted on 11-1-2017 at 03:54 PM
Taz was the first wrestler who started making people tap out.
CheMateo
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posted on 11-1-2017 at 05:44 PM
Makes sense with ECW usually being ahead of the curve. They also had that angle with Taz vs Paul Varleans. Which reminds me of a little yarn.
Initially, Paul E. managed to convince Varleans to do the job for Taz. A little later on Varleans started bellyaching and did not want to put over
Taz. So, Missy Hyatt essentially promised Varleans filatio for doing business with Taz. After Varleans tapped, he came up to Missy to collect on the
beloved act. Missy Hyatt scoffed and said, �I do not give blow jobs to losers�.
CamstunPWG187
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posted on 11-1-2017 at 06:34 PM
In that angle, the boys were extremely wary of him and protecting the business, so Saturn went up top unsuspectingly and stiffed him with one of the
hardest drop kicks you�ll ever see.
Really interesting stuff happened in ECW
CVD39
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posted on 11-3-2017 at 10:26 PM
quote:Originally posted by TexShark300
quote:Originally posted by CVD39Oh, and I remember hearing from more than one person "General Skandar Ackbar? That's Jimmy Wehba who
sells cars over in Jacksboro" (No idea if he ever actually did or not).
