LuckyLopez
Reeks of WCW 
Posts 11596
Registered 2-13-2003 Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 3-2-2010 at 11:11 PM |
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Malenko was awesome but Malenko was a mat wrestler and technician. It was perfect he was wrestling Benoit or Regal but when he wrestled Rey Mysterio
Jr or Jericho they had to adapt to him. Malenko wasn't rigid as I remember seeing him go to the top rope a few times, but he had mastered one
skill and that was what he did. Danielson is more in the vein of an Ultimo Dragon who has mastered multiple skills. He could fly, he could wrestle
high impact, or he could trade submissions. Danielson's built his rep on his diverse skills and ability to constantly entertain.
ROH has a problem with its general booking and you can see that in the history with all of its major guys like CM Punk, Samoa Joe, Christopher
Daniels, Homicide, and Nigel McGuinness. ROH is balls out matches on a constant run. That has a lot of advantages but its major disadvantage is that
eventually you just run out of shit to do. Every one of those guys came to a point in ROH where you could see that the bookers and fans were tired of
them. They'd seen all the moves, they'd seen all the matchups, they could no longer be impressed. It was "time" for all of them to
leave ROH because ROH had burned them out.
Danielson main evented the 1st ROH show and never got burnt out. There's not a list of guys he can work with because he can work with ANYONE
and adapt to them if they can't adapt to him. He can wrestle for 60 minutes and keep you entertained but he can also do a good job in 8 minutes
making the best of what he has. He adapts his moveset and style and changes to his opponent or with times. He's one of the most diverse
wrestlers I've ever seen and its the sort of thing you don't see from a handful of matches. Its the sort of thing you realize after
watching him for 6 months and realizing that he pulled out a move you'd never seen him do or that he hasn't bored you. Some guys in
wrestling are great at what they do. I'll defend John Cena as a guy who knows his job and does it well. But there are guys like Angle,
Jericho, Christian, and AJ Styles who serve a huge purpose because they're flexible and can work up and down the roster with just about anyone
and make it work. That's big but its also the sort of thing you don't see in one match, its what you see from extending viewing when you
realize he might not have been World Champion, he might not have won more than he lost, and he might not have cut the promo of the year... but
he's been the most consistent strength of the company over that time span.
Also:
quote:
Originally posted by folby
He dropped the 'I have 'til 5!' stuff as soon as it got really hot. He tends to do that with moves/gimmicks/etc.
A man after my own heart.
quote:
Originally posted by S Kid J E T S 48
That being said, am I the only one that finds it a little stupid to have him even come close to making the World Champion tap? It's nothing
against Daniel Bryan, but I don't think any of these Rookies should be coming close to beating any of the veterans until Miz gets upset by
Bryan. These guys aren't being portrayed as even first time guys on Raw or Smackdown...they are being portrayed as guys that seem to be in the
minor leagues still. I dunno, maybe that's just my problem. I think there needs to be some sort of "levels" that need to be maintained.
While I understand your later point about momentum, especially leading into WM, I think this perfectly shows my #1 problem with WWE. There ARE levels
that are constantly maintained. Those levels essentially undermine the midcard and make it a chore to push someone meaningfully. It also leads to a
stagnate main event and the same matches over and over because when you have levels that have to be maintained that means its rare that you can find
someone on Level 1 to put over a wrestler on Level 2, let alone numerous ones so he can rise into Level 1.
I like that Danielson brought the fight to the World Champion. That's what's largely missing in WWE in my book. The notion that the
roster is made up of peers and matches have true meaning because this match in front of you isn't just a squash created by TV execs to get
across a story or build momentum. Its an athletic contest between two of the sports' best, and while one may have a large advantage and be
heavily favored the match wouldn't be taking place if there wasn't some chance of him losing.
"Levels" in wrestling fucking suck. All they do is protect a handful of main eventers from having their spots threatened, which in turn mean they
don't have to work extra hard to maintain them. You get a stagnant roster of main eventers who don't do anything new because they
can't or have no motivation and you get a stagnant roster of midcarders who can't even seen through the ceiling they're slamming
their heads on as they compete in meaningless midcard matches like asking the JV squad to have a shoot around before the Varsity team's game.
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diablo_dor
rOOkie
Posts 25
Registered 1-11-2010 Member Is Offline Mood: confuffled
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| posted on 3-2-2010 at 11:36 PM |
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Also two quick points before the Daniel Bryan internet BJ has to be retired when he jobs tonight in 3 minutes to Dark Cena.
One to continue what was mentioned above wasn't there a story that when Danielson was ROH champ he had wanted to use a submission move to win
his match but saw it used during the show and then changed his mind and utilised something completely different? can you imagine any main eventer in
the WWE being that gracious?
Two has anyone else realised that this could make someone else a relevent star again if played right:
William Regal
if they keep it subtle, allow Daniel to either casually mention, or pass in the hall, Regal all the way during the run of the show if you bring Regal
out to defend Daniel at the end you could give him the kind of POP that he never hears, or allows a pretty damn good first, post Miz feud for Daniel
if you want to go that way instead.
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theflammablemanimal
Man of a Thousand Holds 
Posts 1476
Registered 9-2-2008 Member Is Offline Mood: missing his ava
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| posted on 3-3-2010 at 02:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by S Kid J E T S 48
quote:
IAmJericho: RT @DanielBryanNXT: My ribs are still banged up, but I'm hoping to have a match tonight.-stop whining. That was a week ago
already...
Is it wrong to imagine(laugh at) Benoit twittering "ouch my ribs"?
Good point. But feel free to watch some of his matches from ROH or the indies to see what I mean. Or just look at the fact that he didn't miss a
beat after that sick table bump.
EDIT:
quote:
Originally posted by diablo_dor
t when Danielson was ROH champ he had wanted to use a submission move to win his match but saw it used during the show and then changed his mind and
utilised something completely different? can you imagine any main eventer in the WWE being that gracious?
I can't most of them being that gracious or that versatile. First of all, it would never happen because everyone knows WWE main eventers are
going to win their matches with their finishers and you're fired if you use the Pedigree. But if it happened and say someone used the powerbomb
to win, Batista would just go "shit" and win with a spinebuster.
[Edited on 3-3-2010 by theflammablemanimal]
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S Kid J E T S 48
Man of a Thousand Holds 
Posts 1030
Registered 10-12-2007 Location New York Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 3-3-2010 at 06:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLopez
While I understand your later point about momentum, especially leading into WM, I think this perfectly shows my #1 problem with WWE. There ARE levels
that are constantly maintained. Those levels essentially undermine the midcard and make it a chore to push someone meaningfully. It also leads to a
stagnate main event and the same matches over and over because when you have levels that have to be maintained that means its rare that you can find
someone on Level 1 to put over a wrestler on Level 2, let alone numerous ones so he can rise into Level 1.
I like that Danielson brought the fight to the World Champion. That's what's largely missing in WWE in my book. The notion that the
roster is made up of peers and matches have true meaning because this match in front of you isn't just a squash created by TV execs to get
across a story or build momentum. Its an athletic contest between two of the sports' best, and while one may have a large advantage and be
heavily favored the match wouldn't be taking place if there wasn't some chance of him losing.
"Levels" in wrestling fucking suck. All they do is protect a handful of main eventers from having their spots threatened, which in turn mean they
don't have to work extra hard to maintain them. You get a stagnant roster of main eventers who don't do anything new because they
can't or have no motivation and you get a stagnant roster of midcarders who can't even seen through the ceiling they're slamming
their heads on as they compete in meaningless midcard matches like asking the JV squad to have a shoot around before the Varsity team's game.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we have to maintain a level system in the WWE.
But looking at it from an alternative perspective, if we're going to have a tennis match and I'm going against Roger Federer, I might get
a few good shots in, but I shouldn't really have him on the ropes for any significant time.
That's how I see a rookie and a World Champion in this scenerio. It's fine Bryan can get some offense in, maybe even a few pins, but as
far as it goes with Rookies, I'd hope a Champion would know not to get stuck in situations, or at least would show some sort of superiority in
the ring for the balance of a match when they are showing these guys to be barely above the level of FCW.
Bryan is above most of these guys in ringwork, but I still don't want to see the World Champion really looking in trouble against a guy in his
first match, especially one that is going to be staying on a show for rookies for the time being, who will probably job out a bunch of times in the
next few weeks in a much lesser fashion (which I guess we saw last night).
And really, the levels thing doesn't pertain because all the trainers in NXT are guys that the main event level wouldn't really pertain
to. I don't think any of these guys should lose to the rookies anytime soon. If they do, it loses the shock value when a guy like Bryan
actually beats Miz at the end of this, or hurts the fans from getting to see any real progress being made with these guys over the course of a season.
If Bryan can put up such a fight against the World Champion now, if he doesn't do much better by the end of the season, what has this been for?
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theflammablemanimal
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1476
Registered 9-2-2008 Member Is Offline Mood: missing his ava
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| posted on 3-3-2010 at 06:17 PM |
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The tennis metaphor doesn't really work since you couldn't beat Roger Federer, or just get him in serious trouble, with 1 shot.
But in MMA and boxing--the real sports most similar to wrestling--the top guys suffer fluke losses all the time. Obviously, Kimbo and Brock
weren't top guys but they were both stunned by guys with no chance. No one expected Tyson to lose to Buster Douglas. And I'm pretty sure
Liddel, Ortiz, and Couture have all lost to guys that everyone agrees aren't as good as they are.
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S Kid J E T S 48
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1030
Registered 10-12-2007 Location New York Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 3-3-2010 at 06:44 PM |
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I have no idea about MMA. Maybe top guys lose all the time...I'm guessing they'd be more bankable if they didn't have those random
losses (of course not talking about Brock, who is a completely different economic beast from the rest).
In boxing, upsets don't actually happen all that often, nor do they really come all THAT close to happening, which is why when Douglas beats
Tyson, it's the biggest deal ever. If you are better and have more skill, or have been around and have experience to go with your skill, you
barely ever lose against nobodies. And really, Buster Douglas was far from a rookie when he beat Tyson.
No matter what the experience, if they're being labeled rookies, unless they are going to be the greatest of all time (think: Ali over Liston),
they shouldn't be coming close to beating these champions. And if you're WWE, you don't want your World Champion looking like he
can lose to someone in their first match when he's heading to a match with one of your other biggest stars at the biggest show of the year.
Sure, it does great things for Bryan, but him doing that against anyone probably would have given him the longevity that he got from getting Jericho
close. Jericho loses more than Bryan gains if it looks like "The Champion" is going to submit to a rookie.
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theflammablemanimal
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1476
Registered 9-2-2008 Member Is Offline Mood: missing his ava
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| posted on 3-3-2010 at 08:05 PM |
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True. However, WWE has always been of the opinion that it doesn't matter how many times you lose or look stupid because the fans are idiots.
Jericho is a perfect case-in-point as he was a huge loser for months before becoming champion.
Of course, that doesn't mean it's smart booking.
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