LuckyLopez
Reeks of WCW 
Posts 11345
Registered 2-13-2003 Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 2-12-2010 at 07:08 AM |
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It makes sense from the perspective of an ego driven man who believes he's the best game in town and the only man capable of making true stars,
and thus he might get something out of showing that someone else's stars really aren't what they're billed as when they get to the
"big leagues." Maybe a deliberate game, maybe just a subconscious thing. Some day watch the Monday Night War DVD and ask yourself how WWE's
people can see themselves so clearly as the victims and good guys and WCW as the villains and the cheaters, and it comes down to basic human
nature.
Sports teams don't deliberately misuse athletes because there's no gain from it since a good athlete can only help you. Then again
there's plenty of examples of sports franchises giving preference to long standing or home grown talent over free agents or trades, or players
finding themselves devalued on a new team because their new owners/coaches don't see the same value in them their last ones did.
It a pretty terrible comparison seeing as how a wrestler's value is pretty heavily placed in his booking where a baseball or basketball player
can prove his worth by performing if he's given any time to play, and if he isn't then there's a bunch of equal level teams willing
to give them a chance that doesn't often require dropping down a level professionally and giving up a lot of money and job security. Even then,
you don't know much about sports or human nature if you're saying there are never some petty or just foolish owners/coaches/GMs out
there.
And the case with Christian isn't some kind of deliberate burial of a TNA guy. Its a matter of judgment. Christian had a solid career in WWE
as a tag team worker and midcarder. He had a main event run in TNA where he was seen as the MVP of the company. He's had a solid year in TNA
as a midcarder. So I (and I don't think anyone else) claimed he was being buried, in fact I said that he was doing relatively fine even if
he's pretty directionless and without momentum. But what I do believe is that WWE sees him as exactly what they saw him as 4 years ago. A
midcarder. And that 3 years main eventing in TNA did nothing to change that opinion because in WWE's opinion TNA is an irrelevant minor league
where being a champion or being over tells you little more than that they can succeed in a world that has nothing to do with you. Whether this is a
deliberate attempt to undermine the opposition, basic and petty human behavior, or just totally unrelated and purely coincidental evaluation of
talent.
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Devineman
And I am AWESOME  
Posts 219
Registered 10-7-2006 Location UK Member Is Offline Mood: Cynical
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| posted on 2-12-2010 at 06:11 PM |
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Austin wasn't WWE made.
Neither were millions of other: Hunter, well, the whole of DX really. Ron Simmons, Ric Flair, Jericho, Benoit, Eddie, Rey Mysterio, CM Punk, etc.
In fact, out of all of the top stars in the past 20 years, I can only think of Cena and Rocky who were WWE made and drew any money. Maybe Morrison in
a few years, I suppose Umaga was a pretty big draw at one point.
The WWE caters to it's audience, many of whom aren't big ROH, TNA or Indy fans. Hell, a lot of fans in the WWE (due to the nature of the
Monday Night Wars and the polarising effect it had) didn't know or care who DDP was, which is probably why he didn't get over despite a
monster Taker rub.
Christian's antics in TNA may as well been in Japan for all the WWE cares. To my money, this is a bit of a mistake. The Monday Night Wars
don't exist any more, and it's possible for both shows to be viewed by the same audience.
However, the WWE are just doing what they always do, and relying on the wrestlers to get themselves over working the WWE way.
I really, really, really don't care about those ROH guys who can chain wrestle all day long. I watch wrestling to be entertained, and to my
money, match psychology and promos are more important than a 900 degree spinning SSP.
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theflammablemanimal
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1316
Registered 9-2-2008 Member Is OnlineMood: missing his ava
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| posted on 2-12-2010 at 06:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Devineman
Austin wasn't WWE made.
Neither were millions of other: Hunter, well, the whole of DX really. Ron Simmons, Ric Flair, Jericho, Benoit, Eddie, Rey Mysterio, CM Punk, etc.
I disagree. Yes, most of those guys had decent careers coming into WWE (although I don't remember any DX member having any pre-WWE success),
but, except for Flair none of them were really stars. Some of them had decent profiles but none of them (especially Punk) were even close to the level
they were even close to the level of fame that they achieved in WWE. Only Flair was even close to a household name before coming to WWE.
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Devineman
And I am AWESOME
Posts 219
Registered 10-7-2006 Location UK Member Is Offline Mood: Cynical
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| posted on 2-12-2010 at 06:30 PM |
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Well of course not, WWE is a far bigger product than ECW and WCW (at the end) were.
X-Pac had some noteworthyness in WCW. The Midnight Rockers were probably one of the biggest tag team in the business before moving to WWF, I seem to
recall them being AWA Champs. I agree on Hunter though, don't know where that came from.
Simmons was very well known before he went to WWE due to his NWA stuff with Teddy Long and another wrestler who's name escapes me (Atlas?).
Rey was definitely well known in WCW as were Benoit, Eddie and Jericho.
My point was that this myth that only WWE made guys get heavily pushed still pervades despite common logic.
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theflammablemanimal
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1316
Registered 9-2-2008 Member Is OnlineMood: missing his ava
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| posted on 2-12-2010 at 06:41 PM |
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Well, these guys tend to get pushed right out of the gate (like Jericho and the Radicalz) but then settle into the midcard.
I think most people are reacting to the fact that Benoit came in as a (technically) a former WCW champ, Booker was a 5-time WCW champion, and
Jericho/Eddie were pretty big WCW stars, yet it took those guys years to even sniff a title and their title reigns were mostly disasters.
(And I have a hard time counting anything below ECW, TNA, WCW, as having a very successful career. I know it was different back when HBK came to WWE,
but that still doesn't make him a well-known pre-WWE success. Same with Punk and all his indy cred, even though I love his ROH work)
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Devineman
And I am AWESOME
Posts 219
Registered 10-7-2006 Location UK Member Is Offline Mood: Cynical
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| posted on 2-12-2010 at 06:50 PM |
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I would count the NWA guys as pretty well known outside of WWE/WCW/ECW.
Even so, if guys did come in as top guys, then settled at midcard level, it is usually because the WWE crowd didn't buy into them, more than the
WWE purposely making sure that they were lower ranked. They might be assholes in the WWE, but they are a business first.
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blackdragon
The Great One 
Posts 3385
Registered 11-9-2003 Member Is Offline Mood: Awesome
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| posted on 2-12-2010 at 07:25 PM |
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One thing that stuck out at me: what huge Taker rub did DDP get? Did I miss something? Didn't DDP get jobbed the fuck out to Taker at every
turn, like even his sneak attacks ending in him getting beat down? Didn't he get pinned by Taker's wife? Seriously, my memories a bit
fuzzy, so maybe I missed it something, but that just seemed like an interesting choice of words.
A ho fucks everybody. A bitch fucks everybody but you.
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LuckyLopez
Reeks of WCW
Posts 11345
Registered 2-13-2003 Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 2-12-2010 at 07:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Devineman
Austin wasn't WWE made.
Neither were millions of other: Hunter, well, the whole of DX really. Ron Simmons, Ric Flair, Jericho, Benoit, Eddie, Rey Mysterio, CM Punk,
etc.
"Stunning" Steve Austin wasn't WWE made. "Stone Cold" Steve Austin was 100% WWE made. Two very different personas.
HHH was a WCW Saturday Night jobber. CM Punk was in ROH. Ron Simmons? He never rose above tag work in WWE despite being a World Champion in WCW
(and to be fair calling him a "World Champ" is factually true but hardly indicative of his standing in WCW or wrestling, as mostly he's just
a midcarder in WCW who became a midcarder in WWE). That seems like a pretty backwards addition to your list.
If you're going to take this so literally and regard that only people who have spent 100% of their careers in WWE count as "WWE" then
we're never going to get anywhere because that strikes me as silly. We're talking about a persona and presence that is WWE created or
imported over from WCW. Lots of guys had some success elsewhere but achieved more in WWE like Austin, some after a dramatic change. Some were
relative no bodies who just racked up time somewhere else like HHH. Some were big things in the indies which means very little to most of WWE's
audience, case in point CM Punk. These guys aren't the issue. We're talking about guys achieved real success in a national promotion
(ECW, WCW, and TNA) and then moved over intact and treated as the same guy with the same achievements.
And an obvious exception exists during the Monday Night Wars when guys like the Big Show, Jericho, and the Radicals jumping were big deals. They were
big deals because WCW was BIGGER than WWE for awhile and logic dictates that much of their audience was crossover because THAT was the nature of the
Monday Night Wars. A large audience of wrestling fans who were aware enough of both companies to flip the channel when something drew their
attention. But were they really transferred over fully? Benoit left WCW as World Champion and didn't win another World Title for 4 years? The
amusing thing I think everyone forgets about Jericho's big Y2J debut and promo against Rock is that he then did nothing with Rock and instead
feuded with Road Dogg and Chyna. I'm hardly saying they were buried, but they aren't exactly cases of a guy coming into town and getting
a monster push.
Once again, I'm not suggesting this is some grand conspiracy or universal rule. I'm suggesting that its a very natural (if petty) human
instinct. If "WWE > TNA/WCW/ECW" than it stands to reason that "WWE stars > TNA/WCW/ECW stars." You may think its cynical for me to thing this
sort of thing and you'd probably be right, but I also think its pretty idealistic of you to assume Vince and WWE aren't guilty of pretty
human flaws such as vanity or the ability to hold a grudge. Especially knowing what we know about Vince.
But with all due respect, you're also tossing around a lot of midcarders like Simmons and X-Pac and claiming DDP got a "monster rub" so
I'm not really sure where we can go with this since if anything DDP seems like a major example of my argument. And I think there's pretty
glaring cases that support this general idea like the Invasion and ECW's revival.
And as was said earlier Rick made a much better case of this years ago, so by all means take a read since I see no sense in repeating his thoughts
when he expressed them so well.
http://www.oowrestling.com/columns/oo/20060728.shtml
[Edited on 2-12-2010 by LuckyLopez]
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atothej
Posts 2342
Registered 12-21-2002 Location Philly Member Is OnlineMood: No Mood.
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| posted on 2-13-2010 at 06:55 AM |
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I agree with the point that Lucky has made, but think it can be made much more concisely (and through a rhetorical question, no less): Was the
Undertaker "WWE Made", or was Mark Callous established before that persona?
Your momma's so fat, Dave Meltzer gave her struggling to put her jeans on in the morning five stars. -- FF, destroying Jeb, his momma, and
Meltzer in one fell swoop.
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Sweet Lou
Rated R Superstar 
Posts 427
Registered 8-25-2006 Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 2-13-2010 at 08:24 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Devineman
Austin wasn't WWE made.
Neither were millions of other: Hunter, well, the whole of DX really. Ron Simmons, Ric Flair, Jericho, Benoit, Eddie, Rey Mysterio, CM
Punk, etc.
In fact, out of all of the top stars in the past 20 years, I can only think of Cena and Rocky who were WWE made and drew any money. Maybe Morrison
in a few years, I suppose Umaga was a pretty big draw at one point.
The WWE caters to it's audience, many of whom aren't big ROH, TNA or Indy fans. Hell, a lot of fans in the WWE (due to the nature of the
Monday Night Wars and the polarising effect it had) didn't know or care who DDP was, which is probably why he didn't get
over despite a monster Taker rub.
Christian's antics in TNA may as well been in Japan for all the WWE cares. To my money, this is a bit of a mistake. The Monday Night Wars
don't exist any more, and it's possible for both shows to be viewed by the same audience.
However, the WWE are just doing what they always do, and relying on the wrestlers to get themselves over working the WWE way.
I really, really, really don't care about those ROH guys who can chain wrestle all day long. I watch wrestling to be entertained, and to my
money, match psychology and promos are more important than a 900 degree spinning SSP.
It's late and I've had a few drinks. Which means I'm not really in a place to break this post down point by point demonstrating just
how dumb it is. So instead, I just bolded all the dumb parts. I do, however want to mention the polarising part. I think most people watching during
The Monday Night Wars were probably like me, they flipped back and forth watching both. Sure, they may have preferred one or the other, but they were
very aware of what was going on in both.
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TommyD420
Showstopper 
Posts 763
Registered 12-30-2005 Location Worcester, MA Member Is Offline Mood: Smurfy
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| posted on 2-13-2010 at 06:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Devineman
Hell, a lot of fans in the WWE (due to the nature of the Monday Night Wars and the polarising effect it had) didn't know or care who DDP
was, which is probably why he didn't get over despite a monster Taker rub.
Wow.
Listen to the pop he gets at 1:51 when he finally does the reveal. A FACE Pop. Then a "DDP" chant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEY4DJs6II0
You're right, they had no fucking idea who he was.
And he got no rub from Taker. He was buried by Taker just like pretty much everyone else.
[Edited on 2/13/2010 by TommyD420]
http://www.examiner.com/x-22126-Worcester-County-Progressive-Examiner
I write things. You should read them.
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LuckyLopez
Reeks of WCW
Posts 11345
Registered 2-13-2003 Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 2-13-2010 at 06:21 PM |
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No, he had a special kind of burial. He was pinned by Taker's wife.
I miss BikerTaker.
Really, whatever anyone thinks about the overall theory DDP got TERRIBLE booking in WWF and Vince destroyed him. One of the biggest successes WCW had
and the guy who could pop a crowd with one move. And they made him a creepy stalker who was pinned by a wrestler's wife and then became a
motivational speaker. Its just crazy to think that one of the biggest stars of the company that drew some of the highest ratings in wrestling history
wasn't over with WWE's audience in 2001.
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punkerhardcore
The Great One 
Posts 3173
Registered 7-15-2005 Member Is OnlineMood: Lickable
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| posted on 2-13-2010 at 06:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by LuckyLopez
Really, whatever anyone thinks about the overall theory DDP got TERRIBLE booking in WWF and Vince destroyed him.
Woah woah woah, what? Excuse me, but I think you're forgetting how he had a run as EUROPEAN Champion.
Is everyone mad here?
Of course they are, and you are too... otherwise, you wouldn't have come here.
--MySpace makes me way cool too.
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the goon
The Rowdy One 
Posts 2694
Registered 3-13-2004 Location Charlotte, NC Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 2-13-2010 at 11:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by punkerhardcore Woah woah woah, what? Excuse me, but I think you're forgetting how he had a run as EUROPEAN
Champion.
And that's not a bad thing...that's a good thing!
Okay, I'll go away now.
My fake (but real!) band's MySpace
My solo project on MySpace, covering music from old NES games
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