BC
Man of a Thousand Holds 
Posts 1778
Registered 3-30-2002 Location in the bush Member Is Offline Mood: Blessed be
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 03:19 AM |
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I was disappointed that there were no "stolen valor" chants, considering the fake marine made a big deal of returning on Memorial Day
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merc
Showstopper
Posts 917
Registered 2-23-2006 Location New England Member Is Offline Mood: Where's MiCasa?
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 04:15 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by denverpunk
My problem with Cena is that in the ultra rare event that he never loses a feud, he doesn't actually lose the feud.
The fuck you say?
Can't argue with Captain Obvious...
They are called "letters" when put together they make "words". Words make moving photos unnecessary.
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First 9
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1812
Registered 1-22-2013 Member Is Offline Mood: Doing the Emma Dance
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 05:53 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G. Jonah Jameson
OK, there's no way you can make this case about Kevin Owens, who hasn't had one week since his main-roster debut when he didn't have
a major angle going on. Bray Wyatt sometimes disappears between his big angles, but that's part of his character so whether or not it counts is
a toss-up. Rusev is the only one who really works for this scenario, and even then, it wasn't that creative lost interest in him, it was that
creative put him into an angle with Dolph Ziggler that turned out to be terrible, and lost interest in him as a result.
I didn't say they were buried, just that they obviously went down a notch after feuding with Cena. Owens was basically the second top heel after
Rollins and once he was done with Cena, he sort of drifted into a mini-rilvalry with Cesaro and lost the huge amount of air time he got as
Cena's foil. Same with Wyatt and Rusev. It's not that Cena wrecked them(well in Rusev's case yes), it's just that they it took
a while for them to be at that level again as the #1/#2 top heel of the company.
It feels like the Cena feud is what hurts them, but it's just them getting demoted to make space for the next new heel to feud with the face
that runs the place. And then when they clim back up, it's not that they're recovering from losing to Cena, they're recovering from
creative not having anything meaty for them in months.
Honestly, AJ has been a great exception to creative's usual hot and cold runs with new guys. From day one, he's always an active performer
with advancing stories. He still hasn't had a string of forgettable weeks where he's just another guy exchaging wins with somebody with no
sizzle to the steak.
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royberto
And I am AWESOME
Posts 163
Registered 2-27-2014 Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 12:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by salmonjunkie
quote:
Originally posted by denverpunk
I'd be happy if Cena lost any big match clean.
Owens' debut, Del Rio's return, Punk, Rock.
Not a lot, but there are some.
Daniel Bryan.
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G. Jonah Jameson
Showstopper
Posts 946
Registered 12-28-2010 Member Is Offline Mood:
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 12:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by First 9
I didn't say they were buried, just that they obviously went down a notch after feuding with Cena. Owens was basically the second top heel after
Rollins and once he was done with Cena, he sort of drifted into a mini-rilvalry with Cesaro and lost the huge amount of air time he got as
Cena's foil. Same with Wyatt and Rusev. It's not that Cena wrecked them(well in Rusev's case yes), it's just that they it took
a while for them to be at that level again as the #1/#2 top heel of the company.
It feels like the Cena feud is what hurts them, but it's just them getting demoted to make space for the next new heel to feud with the face
that runs the place. And then when they clim back up, it's not that they're recovering from losing to Cena, they're recovering from
creative not having anything meaty for them in months.
Honestly, AJ has been a great exception to creative's usual hot and cold runs with new guys. From day one, he's always an active performer
with advancing stories. He still hasn't had a string of forgettable weeks where he's just another guy exchaging wins with somebody with no
sizzle to the steak.
Heh. If I thought your post were a standard "such-and-such is getting buried" post, I probably wouldn't have even replied to it, so no worries
there. That clarifies things for me, though -- your comment to the effect of "creative stopped caring about them" made me think more of the likes of
Mark Henry, who hasn't had any sort of angle in like a year and a half, than of the three guys you mentioned, who've remained pretty well
occupied since their feuds with John Cena ended (except when they're injured -- cough Bray Wyatt cough). That they tend to drop down a notch on
the card after the Cena feud is a complaint that makes more sense to me.
I don't really know how you fix it, though. You have to do something after your feud with the company's top guy, and by necessity it has
to be with someone who's not the top guy.
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CamstunPWG187
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1430
Registered 5-2-2010 Location Harbin, China Member Is Offline Mood: Barbeque
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 06:33 PM |
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As I discussed the other day with my friends, the Cena feud is indeed a momentum stopper for a lot of guys. Very few guys have ever come out of feuds
with Cena looking like his equal (CM Punk and Daniel Bryan being the first ones that come to mind as being on an equal playing field with him in just
about any match).
Owens barely survived the Cena feud, and that's good, because he's tremendously valuable and creative would be insane to fuck it up.
Problem is, his feud, like someone mentioned earlier, started off hot, but as soon as Cena cut that same fucking promo he always cuts after losing
("you beat me, but you didn't take my belt/as long as i'm here, you'll always have to go through me to get to the top/I was injured
and things might have been different if I wasn't, so don't forget that, Universe"), the program lost steam because you and everyone else
with a clue could see where it was going and eventually went.
I mentioned to them how, besides the feud with Punk, and Vince's out-of-nowhere boner for a near decade-established Orton in late 2013, WWE
usually books the Cena feud in 2 ways (95% of the time):
1.) Opponent gets 1 victory over Cena. Usually not clean. But the talent can get a victory in either the first or second match. Either way, if an
opponent gets a victory over Cena, the feud will automatically be extended to 2 more PPV's and a high chance of a RAW closure match immediately
following the 3rd PPV match.
2.) Opponent gets no victory over Cena and the feud will last for 2-3 PPV's, with Cena somehow being presented to us fans as "overcoming the
odds" in same-ole' gimmick matches disguised as villain specialties during the second and/or third PPV match.
Either way, it's W's for Cena.
Dude is highly protected, no matter how much you anti-hater haters wanna spin it. Hasn't been someone in the game as protected as he is since
Hogan.
Thing that gets me the most is how he definitely has the ability to step up and refuse to do certain things at this point in his career (smart
defiance that benefits everyone), but sits there and continues to go with the flow. If Cena wants to go to bat for guys, then he should make it a
priority to really do something to make a change in how booking is done. And really, nowadays when I hear him giving guys praise and saying that more
should be done with them, I just laugh because all I see it as now is self-serving rhetoric to gain good rapport with IWC fans.
[Edited on 6-2-2016 by CamstunPWG187]
[Edited on 6-2-2016 by CamstunPWG187]
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denverpunk
The Rowdy One
Posts 2394
Registered 6-27-2007 Location Mile-Hi Member Is Offline Mood: Stoked
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| posted on 6-2-2016 at 11:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by merc
quote:
Originally posted by denverpunk
My problem with Cena is that in the ultra rare event that he never loses a feud, he doesn't actually lose the feud.
The fuck you say?
Can't argue with Captain Obvious...
For the life of me, I don't know what the hell you're talking about or what your problem is, but carry on with the snark. It's a
good look on you.
[Edited on 6-2-2016 by denverpunk]
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First 9
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1812
Registered 1-22-2013 Member Is Offline Mood: Doing the Emma Dance
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| posted on 6-3-2016 at 02:45 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by G. Jonah Jameson
Heh. If I thought your post were a standard "such-and-such is getting buried" post, I probably wouldn't have even replied to it, so no worries
there. That clarifies things for me, though -- your comment to the effect of "creative stopped caring about them" made me think more of the likes of
Mark Henry, who hasn't had any sort of angle in like a year and a half, than of the three guys you mentioned, who've remained pretty well
occupied since their feuds with John Cena ended (except when they're injured -- cough Bray Wyatt cough). That they tend to drop down a notch on
the card after the Cena feud is a complaint that makes more sense to me.
I don't really know how you fix it, though. You have to do something after your feud with the company's top guy, and by necessity it has
to be with someone who's not the top guy.
I think the obvious fix is that you never let them just be ''a guy''. They need an active, developing story regardless of who
their opposition is. After Cena, Bray Wyatt just randomly targeted Jericho, with Cena it was because he wanted to corrupt him and rob children of
their hero, with Jericho it was just a bunch of hot air. Owens just waltzed into a random rivalry with Cesaro for the hell of it, Rusve became just
another guy in a stable with no agenda or identity of his own.
These periods where guys just have pointless feuds, exchaning wins with another guy until an uninspired ppv blowoff is what makes them stop looking
special. Owens vs Ambrose should have been the battle of the two best mic workers of the new generation(I think Wyatt is their only competition), but
it was just a string of solid matches with no real sizzle to them. Cena never has those types of feuds, Punk after ascending in 2011 never had them
either, it's what more than anything makes guys feel like they matter. They're not just on tv, they're on tv developing an angle,
telling a story, they have a reason to be there.
On the decade plus argument of Cena looking too strong. Supermen have always been a part of wrestling, Undertaker, Austin, face HHH, Batista,
Goldberg, etc. The issue is that WWE doesn't want to him potray him as a force of nature but instead as a tough underdog. Which makes his
constant wins a lot more grating and that they never really build to his heroic wins. Undertaker was betrayed by Paul Bearer, Buried Alive and overall
outwitted by Mankind for four months before being The Undertaker and winning in dominant fashion.Austin had his moments of glory quickly undone via
McMahon fuckery and had to go on another rampage just for another short stint on top(he's longest title reign was as a heel for a reason.) Cena
is trounced by Kevin Owens and has entire philosophy challenged and his place in a chaging WWE is unsure..and he just wins the next month. It's
not end of the world, that will live in infamy-booking, but well it isn't that compelling either.
[Edited on 6-3-2016 by First 9]
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williamssl
Steers and Queers
Posts 7069
Registered 1-11-2004 Location Hippieville Member Is OnlineMood: Fuck USC
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| posted on 6-3-2016 at 03:43 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by denverpunk
quote:
Originally posted by merc
quote:
Originally posted by denverpunk
My problem with Cena is that in the ultra rare event that he never loses a feud, he doesn't actually lose the feud.
The fuck you say?
Can't argue with Captain Obvious...
For the life of me, I don't know what the hell you're talking about or what your problem is, but carry on with the snark. It's a
good look on you.
[Edited on 6-2-2016 by denverpunk]
Not speaking for merc, but you did say in the ultra rare event that he NEVER loses a feud, he doesn't actually lose the feud.
When he doesn't lose the feud, he doesn't lose the feud.
Or when he wins the feud, he doesn't lose it.
You meant to say EVER loses the feud instead of NEVER.
Ok, carry on.
Don't Mess With Texas
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merc
Showstopper
Posts 917
Registered 2-23-2006 Location New England Member Is Offline Mood: Where's MiCasa?
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| posted on 6-3-2016 at 01:54 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by williamssl
quote:
Originally posted by denverpunk
quote:
Originally posted by merc
quote:
Originally posted by denverpunk
My problem with Cena is that in the ultra rare event that he never loses a feud, he doesn't actually lose the feud.
The fuck you say?
Can't argue with Captain Obvious...
For the life of me, I don't know what the hell you're talking about or what your problem is, but carry on with the snark. It's a
good look on you.
[Edited on 6-2-2016 by denverpunk]
Not speaking for merc, but you did say in the ultra rare event that he NEVER loses a feud, he doesn't actually lose the feud.
When he doesn't lose the feud, he doesn't lose the feud.
Or when he wins the feud, he doesn't lose it.
You meant to say EVER loses the feud instead of NEVER.
Ok, carry on.
Thanks Tex, you got it right.
🍻
They are called "letters" when put together they make "words". Words make moving photos unnecessary.
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denverpunk
The Rowdy One
Posts 2394
Registered 6-27-2007 Location Mile-Hi Member Is Offline Mood: Stoked
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| posted on 6-3-2016 at 08:14 PM |
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Gotta love autocorrect. I meant to say 'ever', not 'never', but I get it now.
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