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Subject: OOfficial Ratings/Discussion Thread for: RAW (October 3, 2011)
nilesanderson
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1641
Registered 5-2-2003 Location Halifax, Nova Scotia Member Is Offline
Mood: Superior
posted on 10-5-2011 at 09:41 AM
quote:Originally posted by mooseheadjack
yes yes, quit watching it already. Don't talk about it unless you have something POSITIVE to say!
That's not what Paddlefoot's saying. Much like it would be annoying to have someone come onto the boards and constantly gush about how
awesome everything on WWE is, it's equally annoying if someone continually comes on and week after week constantly shares their disdain of the
product and has seemingly done so for years. That's the reason why I don't really post here that often anymore. Because I see people
getting all worked up over a wrestling show and then I noticed that was working me up.
I'm gonna chime my own 2 cents in: don't quit watching it but change the way you view it. Anybody who is on these boards obviously loves
wrestling for some reason or another. I got to a point where I didn't enjoy it at all so I stopped watching for 4 years (shortly after the first
One Night Stand). That hiatus allowed for me to take enough space from it that when I started watching it again, I loved it again. It's very
rare I'll watch a full episode (I always fast forward parts that don't interest me) but I haven't been upset by a bad episode of
wrestling for a long time. I've skipped plenty of periods too (I stopped watching for a few months aft Punk lost the title to Undertaker in 2009
and last fall as well). Something always pulls me back. Sometimes for brief periods. Sometimes for more extended periods.
This current angle has me intrigued but I frequently skip RAW because I notice it's a little clusterfuckish. That said, I have no clue where
it's going. There have been parts I liked (Money in the Bank, Hell in the Cell, last weeks RAW) and parts I didn't like (Night of
Champions was stupid) but I've never outright hated anything.
The point is: be constructive.
Doug Almighty
Creepy Little Bastard
Posts 88
Registered 4-24-2005 Member Is Offline
Mood: Rarified
posted on 10-5-2011 at 03:39 PM
Dominator:-
Suggesting present day WWE has much in common with 24 is pretty �out there�... Just hope you�re aware of that.
If the current WWE creative system produced some of the classic episodes of 24, we�d have seen things like Jack Bauer standing in the back corridor of
CTU, where he�d receive an �unexpected� call to come into CTU. His superior wouldn�t ask why he was already at CTU, or why he was already dressed
ready for the specific mission he didn�t know about yet. It would all just happen matter-of-factly. All the bad guys would be instantly identifiable
to Bauer, as they�d naturally group together with other bad guys, and all the good guys would group together too (usually with with no storyline
impetus to do so)...
Also, a lot of the show wouldn�t actually have Bauer on it at all. Some weeks he wouldn�t appear until the very end and not do much. Some cliffhangers
relating to the main story wouldn�t be followed up on the week after either. Instead, the show would open with some unrelated characters having an
argument which has nothing to do with anything. And then, Teddy Long would come out... And... Well, you get the idea.
Anyway! If the fantasyland stuff you�re talking about IS part of the overall plan right now (which seems dubious, though I have talked about a
potential �under the radar� story a lot myself) you have to see the utter lack of success of the approach?! Great to have interesting sub-plots and
themes and stealth arcs, they can be very rewarding, but there should still be a satisfying overt story! And for the most part, WWE doesn�t put
anything decent on the menu. If it�s a �big� happening, it�ll probably be some lame shit, and if it�s matches, it�ll probably be some samey,
methodical, over-produced thing, or a glorifed jobber effort.
Certainly wouldn�t expect to see some thrown-together 6-on-6 match which lasts about 4 hours and spans 13 segments (or whatever it was)... On a show
written by creatively savvy people who value every second of TV time, and agonise over every detail.
quote:Originally posted by Paddlefoot
quote:Originally posted by Doug Almighty
Ahh, but yeah, some of the defenders baffle me too. Especially when they use BS arguments, like you said, but also because they're effectively
ignoring the evidence. Unless they LIKE lame/lazy stuff, or alternatively, don't really like it, but choose to defend it anyway?! Bizarre.
Actually the "defenders" have been more than critical of WWE in the past and will continue to be so in the future. There is no "WWE fanboi" here
giving RAW a 100% passing grade here. In fact, the WWE sk8er boi is more of a mythical beast than all those the Welfare Queens that somehow
keep making like so awful for GOP'ers. It's more like that some of the folks here on OO who, for reasons of their own, are possessed of
total hatred of the WWE product simply can't understand why others aren't. That the whole OO Universe isn't bent towards their
particular viewpoint is confusing to them and it makes them angry. Well, it's all just too fucking bad for them, isn't it? Sometimes in
school you have to sit right next to a gay kid or even of the blacks, so you really have to get used to the fact that life ain't always gonna
meeting up to your own definition of fair.
I actually registered here in 2005 and have so few posts I don�t even qualify for an avatar. I came back when I thought the product was picking
up...
So, if you were in fact lumping me in with a supposed group of �negative� angry irrational people (not sure if you were?) then make that clear... Be
more specific... And I�ll be back(!)
My point about being baffled by people who consistently defend a product which isn�t really fit for purpose, does stand though. Like, where do they
even find the motivation?! What Dominator tried to pull, with the 24 comparison, is a good example. He comes across like an apologist because he is
focussing intently on micro aspects (some of which are imaginary) whilst turning a blind eye to the evident shitness of the macro.
He�s like someone defending a bad restaurant, which routinely serves up undercooked food, by saying the pattern on the cutlery handles is really nice.
And other people should really just get a grip and stop complaining so damn much!!111 Will you guys EVER be happy??!!!111 etc.
The other part of the analogy, maybe (to include people who perhaps complain unfairly) would be to say they�re like people complaining about the food,
because they don�t even like that kind of food. Some ROH enthusiasts might belong in there, I don�t know. But I am definitely all kinds of awesome.
And don�t like to hear people imply otherwise...
OOMike
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1736
Registered 1-3-2002 Location Columbus, OH Member Is Offline
Mood: busy
posted on 10-5-2011 at 03:43 PM
I never thought I would see everyone shitting on a RAW show that did not contain the following: A Cena intense promo, a Cena win, or even Cena
fighting off multiple opponents.
I thought the 12 man tag match was very good, everyone in the match got to have some time in the ring, and it lasted a good long time. Unlike the
Divas 12-woman that broke down in 2 minutes a few weeks ago.
And as been said previously the ending walk out was not quite a WTF moment, but it does make me wonder what is going to happen next week (which I will
miss being out of the country), which is what a main even promo should do, it should entice you to watch next week.
Like Pyro said, the second hour was just basically those two parts and I think they both worked.
KK going crazy is a different way to go with the character, yes Beth is bigger and better, but if you get into a fight with someone crazy like that
with nothing to lose (which I think is where they are going) you are going to have a lot on your hands, especially if you are not expecting it, so if
they are going to continue this character, I think it could be interesting.
Say what you want about Vickie, not many others on the roster generate that much heat from the audience as her.
The movie "Idiocracy" was really a documentary.
Never let the facts interfere with a good rant.
The only OO columnist that has never written a column.
williamssl
Steers and Queers
Posts 4317
Registered 1-11-2004 Location Hippieville Member Is Offline
Mood: Fuck USC
posted on 10-5-2011 at 04:37 PM
There had been previous dirtsheet rumors about one of KK or Eve going heel and the two feuding.
This could be the start of that.
Don't Mess With Texas
Paddlefoot
Posts 1977
Registered 1-19-2008 Location Circus Of Gay Member Is Offline
Mood: F'd N Da A
posted on 10-5-2011 at 05:45 PM
^
Greatest feud ever.
I didn't mean to offend anyone with the earlier post. All the annoying "Sob! Triple-H ruined my whole day!" whining that was going on around
here just got to me.
GW Bush read Camus because "everyone has to read a book written by a killer whale" - General JC Christian
I downloaded the soundtrack to "Song of the South," and it's 45 minutes of whipcracks, women pleading "please, no," and people screaming.
- the esteemed Dr. Mobute
When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir? - John Maynard Keynes
williamssl
Steers and Queers
Posts 4317
Registered 1-11-2004 Location Hippieville Member Is Offline
Mood: Fuck USC
posted on 10-5-2011 at 05:51 PM
This shit better not get nominated for bOOardies....last year's WWE vs. TNA was bad enough.....
Don't Mess With Texas
Paddlefoot
Posts 1977
Registered 1-19-2008 Location Circus Of Gay Member Is Offline
Mood: F'd N Da A
posted on 10-5-2011 at 05:55 PM
TNA? They fucking suck!
GW Bush read Camus because "everyone has to read a book written by a killer whale" - General JC Christian
I downloaded the soundtrack to "Song of the South," and it's 45 minutes of whipcracks, women pleading "please, no," and people screaming.
- the esteemed Dr. Mobute
When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir? - John Maynard Keynes
Chris Is Good517
Posts 10711
Registered 1-10-2002 Location Little Rock, AR Member Is Offline
Mood: punchy
posted on 10-5-2011 at 07:02 PM
So overblown hyperbole like saying you guys would only be happy if the show features CM Punk and Daniel Bryan beating everybody is ridiculous?
Please, guys, tell me more about how lame it is to use ridiculous hyperbole to make points about whether you liked or disliked the show?
Also, everyone who read my post and only took that away is missing my point. For the last six years, people have been complaining because WWE is too
scared to try new things, and when they DO try new things everyone shits on them anyway. Granted, most of you guys are basically saying "IT'S
GONNA FAIL" and based on their track record it's a fairly valid conclusion to jump to, but sometimes I can't help but feel like some of
you guys want to see them fail. Yes, they botched the Nexus angle. Yes, they've botched repeated opportunities to add even a little depth to
Super Cena's stale character. Yes, they botched the Summer of Punk, and yes, they'll probably botch this (considering that
it's leading to the return of Vince, I'm not even going to really try to make an argument that there's anything that can salvage
this angle), but am I the only one who appreciates that they're trying to do something that isn't stale and doesn't end with
Cena standing triumphantly over the heel of the month with his stupid little spinner belt?
Gee, I wish I was still alive- LuckyLopez R.I.P.
Bachmann: "I haven't had a gaffe... when it comes to the best Republican who take
on Barack Obama and not have any clunker in my record to be able to take him on, it's me."
williamssl
Steers and Queers
Posts 4317
Registered 1-11-2004 Location Hippieville Member Is Offline
Mood: Fuck USC
posted on 10-5-2011 at 07:58 PM
It doesn't spin anymore. It hasn't for a while. Watch the show before you go making stupid comments like that.
Don't Mess With Texas
Chris Is Good517
Posts 10711
Registered 1-10-2002 Location Little Rock, AR Member Is Offline
Mood: punchy
posted on 10-5-2011 at 08:00 PM
It's still uglier than the results of your last STD screening
Gee, I wish I was still alive- LuckyLopez R.I.P.
Bachmann: "I haven't had a gaffe... when it comes to the best Republican who take
on Barack Obama and not have any clunker in my record to be able to take him on, it's me."
williamssl
Steers and Queers
Posts 4317
Registered 1-11-2004 Location Hippieville Member Is Offline
Mood: Fuck USC
posted on 10-5-2011 at 08:19 PM
Give the WWE a little credit. I mean we bitched and bitched and bitched about the damn spinning belt. It doesn't spin. And yet we still call
it the spinning belt. Sure it's still all blingy and stupid looking, but it doesn't spin.
People just wanna bitch no matter what.
Kinda like I'm doing here. You're either bitching, bitching about the bitching, bitching about the bitching about the bitching, etc etc
etc.
EDIT:
[Edited on 10-5-2011 by williamssl]
Don't Mess With Texas
Flash
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1016
Registered 4-22-2005 Location Brantford, Ontario Member Is Offline
Mood:
posted on 10-5-2011 at 11:29 PM
quote:Originally posted by Chris Is Good517
Also, everyone who read my post and only took that away is missing my point. For the last six years, people have been complaining because WWE is too
scared to try new things, and when they DO try new things everyone shits on them anyway. Granted, most of you guys are basically saying "IT'S
GONNA FAIL" and based on their track record it's a fairly valid conclusion to jump to, but sometimes I can't help but feel like some of
you guys want to see them fail. Yes, they botched the Nexus angle. Yes, they've botched repeated opportunities to add even a little depth to
Super Cena's stale character. Yes, they botched the Summer of Punk, and yes, they'll probably botch this (considering that
it's leading to the return of Vince, I'm not even going to really try to make an argument that there's anything that can salvage
this angle), but am I the only one who appreciates that they're trying to do something that isn't stale and doesn't end
with Cena standing triumphantly over the heel of the month with his stupid little spinner belt?
No, your not alone as I truly do believe the WWE deserves credit for just what it is that they ARE doing as opposed to constant criticism for all that
they aren't doing right.
I tend to view the whole division and bi-monthly feud between the "wait and see or it is what it is" camp verus the "I swear this is the final
straw and I'm never watching again (until next week)" camp as being a lot like Jar Jar Binks.
The new Star Wars movies were a promise of fulfilling so many years of hope and dreams that a much cherised franchise that caught the attention of an
entire generation were finally going to tell the story we all really wanted to see since we were kids - and they did.... kinda.
Stuff didn't really make sense between the two series and Lucas opted to follow characters around that we as adults really kinda wished he
didn't. Lucas also chose to throw in some bizarre explainations (midichlorians or however you spell it) and by and large left a lot of us
frustrated and longing for how great those original movies were.
The problem is we all watched them at a time when we were a whole lot less complex, and really with the exception of Empire Strikes back being the
Savage versus Steamboat match at WMIII, most of the original triology was bad dialogue and acting, okay special effects, and a story that is very
fondly remembered through the haze of childhood.
Now the new triology wasn't all that great, but the kids absolutely loved Jar Jar and as an adult I pop them in from time to time and can
appreciate it as a "good" story with some cool effects and fight scenes... nothing special, but hardly the abomination they were decried as when
they first came out. They were never intended to change the world or raise the art of film making, but instead were meant to introduce the franchise
to a new generation and TRY and please fans who have been fans for a great many years... tough wire to walk .
I'm pleased with the WWE because the trend I have noticed is that they are at least trying things. Yes Drew McIntyre is under used, but really
who cares except Drew McIntyre fans because the rest of us are happy to see Truth, Miz, Christian, Sheamus, Zack Ryder, and oddly enough even Mark
Henry getting used in new and actual positive ways. Its never enough though... with some of us its always about what they aren't doing because
they've failed OUR expectations even though there's probably as many people who would shit on our desired outcomes and angles as we shit
on theres....
I go to a live event or even catch a PPV at my local theatre and I'm suprised by how "smart" your common fan is... maybe not as "smart" as
someone on this board every day, but they generally know some of the back stage dirt and rumours, but more than any one of us they clap and cheer
along with the show and generally seem to leave happy (or upset if a heel wins)... They might say "It'd be cool if... " or "It's too
bad that..." but by and large they seem to walk out feeling like they were entertained for what they got... and really, can you ask for anything
more?
We generally behave like a creepy ex that laments the doom of the relationship but still take the time to stalk them each and every week to point out
all of their faults and how much better things would be if they'd only have done things the way we want.... Not really someone you'd want
to be in a relationship with is it? Vince and company make their efforts to please us, but really they know we're damaged goods because we have
this paranoid idea that everything they do from the point they wake up each and every Monday morning is designed to put on the shittiest show every...
yeah they could do things better (much better), but there has to be a point where he/thry say hey, maybe I'm not connecting with them or that
some of my jokes may bomb, the that much younger group of people in the corner (complete wiht parent's disposable income) are really digging my
jokes so why should I both with trying to please you... besides, if it gets close to last call I can always let you buy me a drink because God knows
you're still following me around even if you do bitch constantly about it.
I've been kicking this around as a thread topic for a bit as I read over the weekly "wait and see" vs "it sucks" arguments but I gotta
wonder...
Do we expect too much from the WWE?
theflammablemanimal
The Man
Posts 5000
Registered 9-2-2008 Member Is Offline
Mood:
posted on 10-5-2011 at 11:50 PM
quote:Originally posted by SeanSmythe
Im wondering how they are gonna explain Smackdown going on the air without a hitch, almost all that roster walked out. Are we gonna have HHH vs HHH
with special guest ref/time keeper/announcer/color commentator HHH the entire 2 hours?
Well, don't know if anyone mentioned it, but maybe that explains why they kept talking about how he was in charge of Raw and he wasn't
doing a good job running Raw, when he's supposed to run all of WWE. Maybe Teddy Long makes everyone on SD feel safer
I don't think they've made the place out of control enough to justify this angle. No one has been seriously hurt and nothing has happened
that's never been done before. Refs get jumped and people get beat up in the back or after matches? So what? Happens all the time. There has
been worse situations in the WWE (as early as last year) and none of the wrestlers seem to care, so that weakens this angle. It feels like they should
have had much bigger things, like injuries, happen to justify this.
Actually,its funny that Henry crippling 4 people wasn't part of HHH losing control. Oh right, it happened on SD which he doesn't
control.
I do wonder where they go from here. Seems like Raw would have to start with a ton of talking to explain why they have enough talent to have a
show.
How did Titus Young weasel his way into the midcard face group that was last to leave?
And I wonder how they'll explain the top faces not being there. It's not like it would have been out of character for those three guys to
vote against HHH, but still be against walking out (as Punk has explained on his twitter).
And the Beth Phoenix promo was terrible for her character, but who cares? She's in a worthless division that will never be interesting.
ETA:
Punk got taken out by Otunga! BURIED!
Also,.funny seeing both Sin Caras just hanging out at ringside.
[Edited on 10-5-2011 by theflammablemanimal]
The first undisputed OO draft champion of the world
Get the pistons pumping and let the pigeons loose on my yambag
Chris Is Good517
Posts 10711
Registered 1-10-2002 Location Little Rock, AR Member Is Offline
Mood: punchy
posted on 10-6-2011 at 03:17 AM
quote:Originally posted by Flash
Do we expect too much from the WWE?
First of all, that was an awesome post and that kind of consistent quality from you is why you've got my nomination for poster of the year.
To answer your question, I dunno if we expect too much, but we (and I mean we in the broad IWC sense and not "we" as in everyone on this board
specifically) demand that WWE cater to us exclusively and to hell with the casual fans. One of the problems with this is that the casual fans are
typically the ones putting money into WWE, not us. Seriously, how many of you guys who have watched a PPV this year actually paid for it? How many of
their DVDs have you bought? How many times have you bought a ticket and gone when they're in your town? Because here's the thing;
they're going to listen to the paying customer, not the guys online who will spend three hours illegally watching a PPV they aren't
willing to pay for and then have the audacity to bitch about what a waste of their time it was. They're going to listen (admittedly only to some
degree) to the paying fan who goes to the arena and cheers what s/he likes and sits on his/her hands for what s/he doesn't like or doesn't
care for. Yeah, once they get it into their head that they're getting someone over there's not really anything that can be done to stop
them (ADR), but this is why Zack Ryder finally got his push: because the people in the arenas demanded it.
Which is really kind of deviating from your point. I think it's fair for Dev and Moose (who, in all fairness, has made a very noticeable effort
to be a lot more constructive in his criticism recently) and others who aren't enjoying the product to say "hey, I'm not digging this".
But I think a) it's equally fair for people who are enjoying it to do that and defend their position without being accused of being sheep,
apologists, fanboys, or on Vince's payroll and b) to come to terms with the fact that not every match, angle, or segment is going to be in their
wheelhouse.* Because WWE isn't trying to make the perfect show for a small group of fans, they're trying to make a mostly good show for
everybody. And that attitude of "it didn't meet MY expectations" is where all of the bickering on this board begins- people aren't
looking at the bigger picture, just what entertains them personally. And the crazy thing is, WWE seems to be one of the few entities in entertainment
that gets treated this way by its fans. I've never heard anyone say "I'm canceling my subscription to Sports Illustrated because
they've gone years without putting the Nebraska womens' volleyball team on the cover" or "That was such a shitty episode of How I Met
Your Mother, I'm never watching ever again!"** Other than Heroes and LOST, I think WWE is the only thing I've ever seen where former fans
who claim to not enjoy it anymore continue watching week in and week out in what appears to be nothing more than self-abuse, since they apparently
hate it so much.
*I wish people would also stop looking at the Attitude Era with rose colored glasses, because there was just as much stuff we hated going on then as
there is now- probably even more, because Russo had his fingers in so many pots back then. The biggest difference is that there was a midcard and the
guys at the top were much stronger characters with more depth. But it wasn't this mythical land of unicorns and rainbows that we lapped up
without complaint and begged for me. A lot of it was crap comparable to today's crap.
**HIMYM actually got away with a couple of entire seasons that were pretty terrible in comparison to the high standards set by the earlier
seasons of the show, and it has rebounded pretty nicely.
TL;DR: It's fair to complain, but try to remember that WWE is trying to appeal to everybody. It's like being at a buffet: there are going
to be entrees you like, there are going to be entrees you don't. If you hate catfish and they're serving catfish, try to enjoy the roast
beef while you wait for them to bring out another dish you also like.
Gee, I wish I was still alive- LuckyLopez R.I.P.
Bachmann: "I haven't had a gaffe... when it comes to the best Republican who take
on Barack Obama and not have any clunker in my record to be able to take him on, it's me."
S Kid J E T S 48
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1651
Registered 10-12-2007 Location New York Member Is Online
Mood: You Know It
posted on 10-6-2011 at 04:07 AM
quote:Originally posted by Chris Is Good517
First of all, that was an awesome post and that kind of consistent quality from you is why you've got my nomination for poster of the year.
To answer your question, I dunno if we expect too much, but we (and I mean we in the broad IWC sense and not "we" as in everyone on this board
specifically) demand that WWE cater to us exclusively and to hell with the casual fans. One of the problems with this is that the casual fans are
typically the ones putting money into WWE, not us. Seriously, how many of you guys who have watched a PPV this year actually paid for it? How many of
their DVDs have you bought? How many times have you bought a ticket and gone when they're in your town? Because here's the thing;
they're going to listen to the paying customer, not the guys online who will spend three hours illegally watching a PPV they aren't
willing to pay for and then have the audacity to bitch about what a waste of their time it was. They're going to listen (admittedly only to some
degree) to the paying fan who goes to the arena and cheers what s/he likes and sits on his/her hands for what s/he doesn't like or doesn't
care for. Yeah, once they get it into their head that they're getting someone over there's not really anything that can be done to stop
them (ADR), but this is why Zack Ryder finally got his push: because the people in the arenas demanded it.
Which is really kind of deviating from your point. I think it's fair for Dev and Moose (who, in all fairness, has made a very noticeable effort
to be a lot more constructive in his criticism recently) and others who aren't enjoying the product to say "hey, I'm not digging this".
But I think a) it's equally fair for people who are enjoying it to do that and defend their position without being accused of being sheep,
apologists, fanboys, or on Vince's payroll and b) to come to terms with the fact that not every match, angle, or segment is going to be in their
wheelhouse.* Because WWE isn't trying to make the perfect show for a small group of fans, they're trying to make a mostly good show for
everybody. And that attitude of "it didn't meet MY expectations" is where all of the bickering on this board begins- people aren't
looking at the bigger picture, just what entertains them personally. And the crazy thing is, WWE seems to be one of the few entities in entertainment
that gets treated this way by its fans. I've never heard anyone say "I'm canceling my subscription to Sports Illustrated because
they've gone years without putting the Nebraska womens' volleyball team on the cover" or "That was such a shitty episode of How I Met
Your Mother, I'm never watching ever again!"** Other than Heroes and LOST, I think WWE is the only thing I've ever seen where former fans
who claim to not enjoy it anymore continue watching week in and week out in what appears to be nothing more than self-abuse, since they apparently
hate it so much.
*I wish people would also stop looking at the Attitude Era with rose colored glasses, because there was just as much stuff we hated going on then as
there is now- probably even more, because Russo had his fingers in so many pots back then. The biggest difference is that there was a midcard and the
guys at the top were much stronger characters with more depth. But it wasn't this mythical land of unicorns and rainbows that we lapped up
without complaint and begged for me. A lot of it was crap comparable to today's crap.
**HIMYM actually got away with a couple of entire seasons that were pretty terrible in comparison to the high standards set by the earlier
seasons of the show, and it has rebounded pretty nicely.
TL;DR: It's fair to complain, but try to remember that WWE is trying to appeal to everybody. It's like being at a buffet: there are going
to be entrees you like, there are going to be entrees you don't. If you hate catfish and they're serving catfish, try to enjoy the roast
beef while you wait for them to bring out another dish you also like.
[There's probably a more appropriate slow clap I could use...but I'm too tired to look. You get the point.]
[Edited on 10-6-2011 by S Kid J E T S 48]
FREE ZACK RYDER
theflammablemanimal
The Man
Posts 5000
Registered 9-2-2008 Member Is Offline
Mood:
posted on 10-6-2011 at 11:36 AM
I think it's unfair to say that people are only complaining because they want WWW to cater specifically to them or do Punk/Bryan Iron Man title
matches every night.
Besides the subjective opinion of saying this angle is boring, people have made plenty of good points about why this angle is silly. And complaining
that WWE has seemingly dropped their hottest angle in years with all this stuff isn't always a complaint that "Punk should always be champ!"
so much as it's a complaint that the angle was cool, smart and seemed to be satisfying the iwc AND casual fans AND the fans in the arena AND the
media.
And now, besides people complaining on the boards, WWE has dropped off the board. When was the last time Bill Simmons or some other major media person
talked about WWE being interesting or a WWE superstar was asked to come on a national talk show (besides just pumping up a dvd movie)? Not since they
started screwing with this angle with Nash and everything else.
I think both sides keep putting up strawman arguments like "you just love Punk" or saying idiotic things like "why watch the show if you'll
complain about it?" No one is ever going to be clearly right in these purely subjective debates, but no reason to throw out all these erroneous
arguments.
The first undisputed OO draft champion of the world
Get the pistons pumping and let the pigeons loose on my yambag
S Kid J E T S 48
Man of a Thousand Holds
Posts 1651
Registered 10-12-2007 Location New York Member Is Online
Mood: You Know It
posted on 10-6-2011 at 12:06 PM
quote:Originally posted by theflammablemanimal
And now, besides people complaining on the boards, WWE has dropped off the board. When was the last time Bill Simmons or some other major media person
talked about WWE
He asked to preview Hell in a Cell on air last Friday on PTI. That's a pretty decent mention.
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firewoman
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posted on 10-6-2011 at 01:27 PM
quote:Originally posted by theflammablemanimal
I don't think they've made the place out of control enough to justify this angle. No one has been seriously hurt and nothing has happened
that's never been done before. Refs get jumped and people get beat up in the back or after matches? So what? Happens all the time. There has
been worse situations in the WWE (as early as last year) and none of the wrestlers seem to care, so that weakens this angle. It feels like they should
have had much bigger things, like injuries, happen to justify this.
I think that's the bigger problem with the story itself. If there had been...I dunno, cars hitting people, big ass brawls backstage, referees
getting tazed, divas getting harassed....then yeah....but all the things they were bitching about I don't think have happened much in the PG13
era, save for the wonderfully done Bret Hart Car Incident.
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posted on 10-6-2011 at 01:34 PM
quote:Originally posted by S Kid J E T S 48
quote:Originally posted by theflammablemanimal
And now, besides people complaining on the boards, WWE has dropped off the board. When was the last time Bill Simmons or some other major media person
talked about WWE
He asked to preview Hell in a Cell on air last Friday on PTI. That's a pretty decent mention.
Plus there is a weekly column on Grantland.com, Simmons' new sport/entertainment site.
The movie "Idiocracy" was really a documentary.
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theflammablemanimal
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posted on 10-6-2011 at 02:25 PM
quote:Originally posted by firewoman
I think that's the bigger problem with the story itself. If there had been...I dunno, cars hitting people, big ass brawls backstage, referees
getting tazed, divas getting harassed....then yeah....but all the things they were bitching about I don't think have happened much in the PG13
era, save for the wonderfully done Bret Hart Car Incident.
Exactly. There is no way that JR for example should feel less safe now than when Kane was lighting him on fire, Austin was breaking his arm, Swagger
was putting him in the ankle lock and making his lick Cole's toes, or when the old boss was making him kiss his ass.*
Especially since really all the "chaos" is tied to two men who were fired. The only necessary solution is more/better security.
It's a fresh angle that could go either way (though WWE's track record shows it's more likely to go bad) but as usual it has been
poorly executed.
*JR has tweeted that he'll he at Raw on Monday with Punk/Sheamus/Cena (and presumably Mason Ryan, the superface).
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posted on 10-6-2011 at 04:10 PM
I think a lot of the problem is with the pacing. They make some things take forever and they never pay off: such as the mystery G.M., but they blow
through storylines that should have taken a lot longer to complete--such as John Cena coming back so quickly when he was 'fired' last
year, resigning Punk so quickly (although I do get why they did that) after he had just left the company, and apparently wrapping up the Triple H COO
storyline only after a couple of months with him in charge. I don't know where it's going, but I also have the feeling that Vince will be
back yet again, and it's too soon and no real reason for it. I still can't wait for the muppets though.
Flash
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posted on 10-6-2011 at 05:40 PM
I think the thing is though is that those that are saying wait and see or find the good are just as willing to say that yeah, this falls short of MY
expectations, or that it would have been preferable if _________ had happened instead...
Go back a year and look at CM Punk;
Indy/Internet darling who was an often times neglected best part of the show. Yeah he got a few pushes and belts here and there, but I think we could
all agree that guy with tatoo's and piercings was probably capped at the upper mid card at best.
If I had've told you that a year from now he would be involved in one of the hottest angles in recent memory for a month or two, that he's
be put pretty definitively over Cena, and getting to be centrally involved with the companies biggest angles (HHH COO, the Conspiracy), and gets to
hang with some of the biggest legends of the business, I'm guessing most of us would be pretty psyched for, in in disbelief of any of that
happening.
Was it as great as what it could have been? Absolutely not. I do thnk the WWE rushed on things a bit, and there have been a few misteps along the way
that I think could have been handled better. (To go more broadly I personally think the Daniel Bryan treatment has been 10x worse than any of the
Punk complaints... the guy wins MITB, calls his WM spot, and then... disappears? Even if DB loses that MITB leaving a guy to spin his wheels is not
how you either build someone or make me believe in what you are selling me)
Failed expectations or not, a guy who was an upper-midcarder not too long ago is now the #3 guy in the company and is opening and main eventing
virtually every show he's on. I tend to see the HHH win as a mid point in a longer story, but even if you wanted to say it was HHH burying him
its still one of the biggest names in the business coming out of retirement to personally take out Punk, except he did it in such a way that Punk was
also completely protected (what's he eat... 3 pedigree's?). Even the Nash stuff... which I will say I have had some problems with.. not so
much with his presence, but that last minute pull out from his match with Punk felt really awkward and disjointed, but again... maybe bigger story?
End of the day, Punk is a bigger star than he has ever been before, and even playing second fiddle to HHH he's probably having his second
biggest feud of his career behind only his John Cena matches.
Punk showing up in ROH and all these other little feds with perhaps a disgraced John Cena chasing him in an effort to regain the WWE championship
would have been really cool, and I personally think they could have let that play out a bit more...
But really, I'm a wrestling fan and outside of the boards and some history on guys like Punk, Bryan, and Bourne I've never watched a
single ROH match in my life. I probably would never have even heard of ROH had it not been for OO. I'm assuming your average WWE fan probably
feels about the same about ROH as they do if you told me you wanted to show me your family vacation pictures from your trip to Puerto Rico, or Munich,
or Bologne... they're places on a map that I've heard of, but I don't know how much it would excite me to want to look at your
pictures (or home video) week after week and listed to you tell me about what a great time you had there... Take me with you or tell me we're
going to do something cool together tonight and I'm game, but my patience only goes so far for scrap books and grainy footage of darkened indy
arena's.
So really... how long should the WWE have sat on one of their hottest angles in recent memory? How long should they have denied their paying fans of a
guy and matches they all want to see? There's a balance, and the WWE doesn't always strike it right but in in getting it all wrong I do
think they are trying, just maybe not trying to please me or my fellow OO'sters...
So the WWE does fall short of my expectations as well, and probably also every single person who falls on the wait and see side of the argument fence,
but as I asked above; are we expecting too much from the WWE, and thus putting unfair expectations on what it IS, but instead judging it by what it
ISN'T.
IE, Women would be far hotter if they glowed red whenever they were turned on by portly comic/wrestling geeks who work in insurance, but they
don't and that sucks and is my right to bitch about it being a fan of hot women... But I'm not going to say that I'm done with women
week in and week out and how I'm never going to obsessively watch them again... (aw crap, this just go weird...) simply because they don't
glow red when hot to trot for my benefit... they just don't do that and there has to be a point where I can either enjoy them for what they are
while longingly wishing, or go gay (even though I read somewhere that evolutionarily speaking our primate asses and cheeks did once glow red when
arroused...so its more they don't do that anymore I guess... although the face cheeks and lips do swell when arroused... kinda like the WWE
arguments i guess... they once did it, and occasionally still do, just not to the extent we would like)
williamssl
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posted on 10-6-2011 at 06:47 PM
This week and every week in the Raw thread:
Don't Mess With Texas
theflammablemanimal
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posted on 10-6-2011 at 07:13 PM
Flash, I don't know what that last paragraph was, but to your main point. I can't imagine we're setting our expectations too high
since most of us expect the worst.
The really surprising thing about the Punk angle was that everyone was excited and mostly talking about all the cool ways it can go, instead of the
usual "well, this could be interesting but will probably suck" attitude. Even when it started going downhill, most people were willing to give it a
chance.
I also get annoyed when you or others play the "what else could they do? Not have Punk on tv card?" We all understand the necessity of having Punk
on tv and we all understand that him showing up in Japan or at ROH was a pipe-dream (that could only be fully realized in the OO fantasy draft), but
that doesn't mean he had to come back, sign a contract and go back to normal. It's not a one-or-the-other proposition. Any monkey could
have spent ten minutes to think of half-a-dozen ways to keep Punk relevant and on tv and even at the pay per views without him just coming back and
signing a contract.
Unfortunately they didn't. Not really worth debating anymore but if others are going to keep trotting out the same arguments over and over...
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posted on 10-7-2011 at 04:00 AM
Lol, yeah that last paragraphs was kind of out there now that I re-read it.
As to the rest... You're not wrong Flam', they did short cut and they did drop the ball by taking the easiest or laziest way out. My own
expectations weren't met by what we got. In saying that, I don't think what we got, or continue to get is the steaming pile of horse shit
that some people make an apperance each week on here and claim we got before they swear that this week was the final straw and they'll never
watch again... until next week.
Maybe I just watch the show differently and that's why I'm able to dismiss it as 2 hours a week where I can park my brain and not think.
When I watch Raw I'm usually working on something else at the computer or reading a book. If and when the big stuff comes up I'll pay
closer attention. I also walked away for several years when I found it got to the point of actually offending me even at half attention.
I just find it a bit disheartening to come on here and read half the posts where people just say "its shit"... if its JUST shit, why watch it? If
its not JUST shit (and I think the fact that people do keep coming back would suggest that they watch it because they do like it) then I'd be
far more interested in hearing what someone did like about the show, or WHY they didn't like something, or heck what they would have liked to
have seen done differently.
I don't always agree with all the other WWE appologists, but I do tend to find this side of the fence a bit more willing to talk about things in
a more balanced fashion on average, and that's a shame because a lot of those on the other side that do routinely come on here and say "its
shit" have shown themselves to be pretty intelligent people in their own right once you get them to tease out the source of their frustrations a bit
more.
